.
Fender is not honoring older Guild lifetime warranties.
- Thread starter nodrog1944
- Start date
Terry Allan Hall
Member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
- Messages
- 540
- Reaction score
- 0
fronobulax said:
Exactly. When I made my choice some 18 years ago between my Guild and a Taylor (it had come down to those two, and I'm sure Taylor has some type of warranty) the specifics of any warranty were negligible. My decision was based on sound and playability.
This debate will continue on, I'm sure.
Tom in Vegas[/quote]
Some of us want everything we paid for. Playability and tone are certainly part of what we pay for, but only part.
And some of us consider that both sides honoring a deal shows integrity.
davismanLV
Venerated Member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2011
- Messages
- 19,388
- Reaction score
- 12,233
- Location
- U.S.A. : Nevada : Las Vegas
- Guild Total
- 2
Oh jeeze, Terry, don't get all high and mighty with me. You with your "SOME of us this and SOME of us that...." please.
I'd love it if they'd honor their lifetime warranty. I know all about integrity. But WE (you and I and everyone else commenting here) are not in control of what happens. And I can see both sides of this.
It's a lovely color RED, that font of yours. :wink:
Tom in Vegas
I'd love it if they'd honor their lifetime warranty. I know all about integrity. But WE (you and I and everyone else commenting here) are not in control of what happens. And I can see both sides of this.
It's a lovely color RED, that font of yours. :wink:
Tom in Vegas
Terry Allan Hall
Member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
- Messages
- 540
- Reaction score
- 0
davismanLV said:
Expecting to get EVERYTHING that I paid my hard-earned $$$ for is, in your mind, being "high and mighty"?
Wow, Tom in Vegas, I guess P.T. Barnum wasn't kidding! :roll:
plaidseason
Senior Member
When I was teenager I worked in a widely renowned seafood restaurant. Part of the reason they were/are widely renowned was their mantra that "the customer is always right." This meant that more often than not, even if you eat half of your shrimp platter before deciding to come up and complain that your food is cold . . . they're going to give a whole new, and definitely hot, shrimp platter. Will some people take advantage of this policy? Sure. But in the end, word of mouth can doa lot to promote your brand.
So when I tell people that I once had a Guild guitar replaced under warranty, and that I drove up to Westerly to drop it off, and that they replaced the guitar with no questions asked . . . that means a lot to people. It says, "this is a company that stands behind their product" and "this is a company that stands by their customers." Martin gets this. It's why they have a somewhat corny magazine with photos and letters from long time owners who are forever enamored of their brand. Fender, and every other guitar maker could learn a lot from them.
You don't move your brand around the country three more times . . . you build a new plant, or refurbish the existing place . . . because it's part of your identity. I bought my first Guild partly for the fact that they were made in New England.
You don't treat your dedicated customers suspiciously . . . you say, "what would Martin do" and then you take care of your long time customer. That satisfied customer then becomes further enamored of your brand and perhaps buys more guitars, or gear, and/or prompts his/her friends and family members to buy your guitars.
I've seen people make horrible buying decisions soley because Martin is so well renowned. I helped a friend buy a guitar once, and recommended an incredible used Guild DV6. But he wanted a Martin so bad, he bought one of those high pressure laminate Martins for the same price. In the end, he was happy . . . because he always wanted a Martin.
Guild should learn from all of this. They should push the New England craftsmanship angle. They should push the "dedicated to our customers" angle. They should push the "dedicated to our retailers" angle.
Otherwise . . . people are just going to continue picking high pressure laminate Martins. And who can blame them . . . there's a reputation and a story . . . and it's 100% true.
So when I tell people that I once had a Guild guitar replaced under warranty, and that I drove up to Westerly to drop it off, and that they replaced the guitar with no questions asked . . . that means a lot to people. It says, "this is a company that stands behind their product" and "this is a company that stands by their customers." Martin gets this. It's why they have a somewhat corny magazine with photos and letters from long time owners who are forever enamored of their brand. Fender, and every other guitar maker could learn a lot from them.
You don't move your brand around the country three more times . . . you build a new plant, or refurbish the existing place . . . because it's part of your identity. I bought my first Guild partly for the fact that they were made in New England.
You don't treat your dedicated customers suspiciously . . . you say, "what would Martin do" and then you take care of your long time customer. That satisfied customer then becomes further enamored of your brand and perhaps buys more guitars, or gear, and/or prompts his/her friends and family members to buy your guitars.
I've seen people make horrible buying decisions soley because Martin is so well renowned. I helped a friend buy a guitar once, and recommended an incredible used Guild DV6. But he wanted a Martin so bad, he bought one of those high pressure laminate Martins for the same price. In the end, he was happy . . . because he always wanted a Martin.
Guild should learn from all of this. They should push the New England craftsmanship angle. They should push the "dedicated to our customers" angle. They should push the "dedicated to our retailers" angle.
Otherwise . . . people are just going to continue picking high pressure laminate Martins. And who can blame them . . . there's a reputation and a story . . . and it's 100% true.
Terry Allan Hall
Member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
- Messages
- 540
- Reaction score
- 0
plaidseason said:
Well said! 8)
Guild guitars started as a small company where the workers and management took pride in their work, pride in the quality of their guitars, and pride in their name. It is now a small division of a huge multinational company whose management is a long, long way from the sawdust in the shop. It's all just 'product' to them at this point and an individual customer is not as important as cost savings. I love my Corona X150, it's a fine guitar, but it was made by a very different company from the one that made my Hoboken D50. Sadly, somewhere along in that process, brand allegiance starts to seem a little misguided.
AlohaJoe said:
Shame that it is, that's an area where Martin really shines Joe. To be doing what they have been doing under one owner in one place for so long tells me that they surely must be doing something right, and I'm sure their customer-centric ideology has a large part to do with that. I swore I'd never own another Martin after that dud of a '76 D28 that I owned in the early '80s. I'm just glad that I don't follow my own advice or I never would have bought the D18DC. :lol:
Having little or no regard for your customers might fly with cheap guitars and indeed might be necessary, but it has no place where Guild is trying to position themselves now. Martin and more recently Taylor have significantly and indelibly raised the bar. What plaidseason said!
Terry Allan Hall
Member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
- Messages
- 540
- Reaction score
- 0
twocorgis said:
Seems to me that if enough past customers, and potential new customers, let them (FMIC) know what we'll stand for...and what we won't...the situation just might improve for Guild and Guild owners.
And FMIC Guild might, in time, come to be a SERIOUS contender for C.F. Martin's crown.
Terry Allan Hall said:
I'd LOVE to see that myself, but it will require a significant number of troops on the ground. Ain't happening yet... :roll:
Terry Allan Hall
Member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
- Messages
- 540
- Reaction score
- 0
twocorgis said:
Absolute agreement...it'll take time and a lot of phone calls/emails/letters just to get FMIC's attention...
And FMIC is NOT famous for paying a lot of attention, but we Guild-o-holics are a tenacious lot... 8)
West R Lee
Venerated Member
Terry Allan Hall said:
Absolute agreement...it'll take time and a lot of phone calls/emails/letters just to get FMIC's attention...
And FMIC is NOT famous for paying a lot of attention, but we Guild-o-holics are a tenacious lot... 8)[/quote:3n4o1oc4]
I've been singing this song for about 5 1/2 years here Terry. Good luck sir!West
I agree, and it's hard to be optimistic when Guild is such a small piece of the company's pie.twocorgis said:
The Fender conglomerate wants to continue to sell cheap guitars to first time buyers while expanding (evermore) to include both high end and mid-level Guilds, Gretsch, SWR, Squier, Jackson, Charvel, Hamer, Tacoma, Sunn and about 5 other smaller brands. Unfortunately, as the loyal customers for each of those brands become a smaller and smaller portion of Fender's business their voices carry less and less weight to management. Fender wants to conquer the world and become all things musical, while Martin has consistently focused on doing one thing well, and therein lies the difference.
If FMIC plays their cards right, builds high-quality Guilds, gets then in stores where people can get their hands on them and learns how to treat their customers responsibly, they may be able to return Guild to its rightful position as one of the top three acoustic guitar manufacturers in the world. I certainly hope so. Guild has always made great guitars, only to be outflanked by the marketing departments of the other two.
New Hartford has the skills. Only time will tell if FMIC is committed enough to put their marketing money and expertise to work rebuilding the Guild brand. So far their commitment seems a little tepid.
AlohaJoe said:
Unfortunately, Guild has become the marginal entity that it is because of FMIC. There seems to be a fair amount of commitment on FMIC's part to the future of the brand, and our factory tours would seem to bear this out. There is still much to be done though. I hope for the continued success of the company, but it's hard when you can't find one to play, even in a highly populated region like mine.
AlohaJoe said:
I think the commitment is there. What remains to be seen is if their aim is true. Too bad you're not coming this October, Joe. The tour will alter your perspective a bit. 8)
West R Lee
Venerated Member
AlohaJoe said:
I would agree with all you've said Joe, other than Guild has 3 competitors outflanking them in Martin, Taylor and Gibson.
West
I hope you're right... I would love to make that tour Sandy! The best part would be meeting you and the other fine Guilders in person. And I'd be happy to have my perspective altered too. I'm sure the folks in New Hartford are making some really fine guitars. I take nothing away from them or the work they do. I wish I could find one to play!twocorgis said:
The bean-counter view of things.
Most companies that make products for industrial, commercial, or retail create a warranty obligation; some of their stuff is going to break and it's going to need to be fixed or replaced. A company like Guild with its years of operating history regardless of ownership, would be able to estimate its warranty requirements by looking back and comparing how many guitars it made in a given year to how many needed warranty repairs or replacement.
When a guitar / jet engine / toaster oven is sold, a kind of dummy transaction takes place; a warranty expense (charge against earnings) is recognized but the money is pooled in an Allowance for Warranty Expense or some similar title. This will build an account of cash against which future realized warranty costs can be charged off. This keeps the effects of bad QA/QC in prior years from eroding or coloring the operating results of the current year on the Income Statement.
At the end of the Tacoma years and given its iffy QA/QC situation arguably influenced by the rollout of the Contemporary models, the Warranty Reserve was either depleted or looted by mgmt; reaching in and taking the cash reserve to offset operating losses. Sandy got his guitar's neck re-set at what I understand is a facility that no longer exists. The end of that facility roughly coincides with the revised (cough cough) warranty requirement that any warrantable guitar has to have been purchased from an authorized Guild dealer.
It would be understandable for Guild to require that its Authorized dealers have a qualified repairman on premises because, as a practical matter, there is nowhere else to send the guitars for repair; that is, can't send them to the non-existent custom shop and apparently NH Guild isn't carrying craftsmen on the payroll who do nothing but repair come-backers; similar to car dealerships and warranty work, the dealer does the work and bills the manufacturer. The dealer has the assurance that the manufacturer won't go around bidding the work to the cheapest garage.
The fact that warranty work is 'guaranteed' by Guild (or GM) to come back to the dealer means that the dealer, instead of depending on walk-in fix-'em-up work to keep his repairman busy or farming it out to a guy who works in his garage, can expect some future repair work to be Guild (GM) warranty work. This arrangement would benefit and protect dealers and allow Guild to avoid carrying repairmen on the payroll (and dodge out-years benefits) but exposes them to slightly higher hourly repair rates from its Authorized dealers.
Anyway, I think this is the rationale for the current (cough cough) warranty policy of funneling warranty claimants to authorized dealers; the fact is that Guild can't repair the guitars themselves even if they wanted to and that there's at least some reason to believe that until their Warranty Reserves are replenished, (cough cough) warranty policy is going to be Nancy Reaganesque: 'Just Say No'.
Most companies that make products for industrial, commercial, or retail create a warranty obligation; some of their stuff is going to break and it's going to need to be fixed or replaced. A company like Guild with its years of operating history regardless of ownership, would be able to estimate its warranty requirements by looking back and comparing how many guitars it made in a given year to how many needed warranty repairs or replacement.
When a guitar / jet engine / toaster oven is sold, a kind of dummy transaction takes place; a warranty expense (charge against earnings) is recognized but the money is pooled in an Allowance for Warranty Expense or some similar title. This will build an account of cash against which future realized warranty costs can be charged off. This keeps the effects of bad QA/QC in prior years from eroding or coloring the operating results of the current year on the Income Statement.
At the end of the Tacoma years and given its iffy QA/QC situation arguably influenced by the rollout of the Contemporary models, the Warranty Reserve was either depleted or looted by mgmt; reaching in and taking the cash reserve to offset operating losses. Sandy got his guitar's neck re-set at what I understand is a facility that no longer exists. The end of that facility roughly coincides with the revised (cough cough) warranty requirement that any warrantable guitar has to have been purchased from an authorized Guild dealer.
It would be understandable for Guild to require that its Authorized dealers have a qualified repairman on premises because, as a practical matter, there is nowhere else to send the guitars for repair; that is, can't send them to the non-existent custom shop and apparently NH Guild isn't carrying craftsmen on the payroll who do nothing but repair come-backers; similar to car dealerships and warranty work, the dealer does the work and bills the manufacturer. The dealer has the assurance that the manufacturer won't go around bidding the work to the cheapest garage.
The fact that warranty work is 'guaranteed' by Guild (or GM) to come back to the dealer means that the dealer, instead of depending on walk-in fix-'em-up work to keep his repairman busy or farming it out to a guy who works in his garage, can expect some future repair work to be Guild (GM) warranty work. This arrangement would benefit and protect dealers and allow Guild to avoid carrying repairmen on the payroll (and dodge out-years benefits) but exposes them to slightly higher hourly repair rates from its Authorized dealers.
Anyway, I think this is the rationale for the current (cough cough) warranty policy of funneling warranty claimants to authorized dealers; the fact is that Guild can't repair the guitars themselves even if they wanted to and that there's at least some reason to believe that until their Warranty Reserves are replenished, (cough cough) warranty policy is going to be Nancy Reaganesque: 'Just Say No'.
capnjuan said:
The facility actually does still exist Cap'n, though not for much longer. Sad news for people like Thane Shearon, who I got to be rather friendly with during the repair process of the D50. I just got off the phone with him, and he sees it as a new opportunity in his life, which is a good approach.
Like Chaz, that's about all I can say right now...
My apologies Sandy; I mis-read 'going' for 'gone'.twocorgis said:
So ... my remarks can be read to demonstrate how Guild will cover (cough cough) warranty claims when your friend finds a new job .. sorry ... make that takes the opportunity to find a new job.
Guild Management in action ...
geoguy
Senior Member
Tough crowd.
I see no reason for Guild to be performing free maintenance work on 20 to 50 year-old guitars. If Martin wishes to do so, good for them (and their customers), but I'll still have more Guilds (currently several) than Martins (currently none) under my roof.
Based on what Chazmo said (back on the first page, perhaps?) it sounds as though a different option may be available for warranty repairs in a couple of months. I look forward to hearing about that, should I ever need a warranteeable (sp?) fix.
I see no reason for Guild to be performing free maintenance work on 20 to 50 year-old guitars. If Martin wishes to do so, good for them (and their customers), but I'll still have more Guilds (currently several) than Martins (currently none) under my roof.
Based on what Chazmo said (back on the first page, perhaps?) it sounds as though a different option may be available for warranty repairs in a couple of months. I look forward to hearing about that, should I ever need a warranteeable (sp?) fix.