Bad Music Decisions

[killdeer43]

intellectual masturbation

:lol:
Missed this one the first time through.
What a great phrase!! :wink:

Joe

 

[AcornHouse]

Moon "drove" the band unlike anyone else could

This is very true. I do miss his playing. Keith Moon did a lot of innovative (and difficult) drumming. Daltry/Townsend do look quite energetic in their recent performances. Not to mention Mick Jagger prancing around quite well.

Pete has talked about this. When Keith was alive, Pete did more Rhythm playing, since Moonie was playing more solo than foundation. Without him, Pete had to change the way he played ( and experiment with adding horns, keyboards, extra guitars, etc. to fill the gap.)

 

[idealassets]

since Moonie was playing more solo than foundation

Definitely, and he actually put both bass drums to good use, they weren't there just for looks. I recall just one other drummer that could come close to sounding a like Keith Moon, that was Paul Whaley of Blue Cheer. He played a version of Keith Moon's drumming style that wasn't quite as proficient, and perhaps a bit louder (or harder).

 

[southernGuild]

"By the way, when does it become a "Bad Music Decision" to keep calling yourself The Who, even though two of your original members are long gone? I'd still enjoy their music if they were called Daltrey/Townshend or something...

I agree. It's just not quite right anymore. Perhaps they should be called "The Who....Sub TWO"
( The Who....Sub-Sti-Two-t) Thats what I'm thinkin'.

By the way Walrus, How was Pete Townsend bio? I was given it for Christmas, but not sure if I can commit to such a big read on the subject. Good read?

 

[walrus]

Excellent read! He openly discusses some psychological issues he has dealt with, great "behind the scenes" stories of The Who, etc. You also get quite a sense of just how prolific a writer he is. I really enjoyed it!

walrus

 

[southernGuild]

I DO love his writing....."Horses neck' was a great book, and his two albums after the Who, 'Chinese eyes', and 'The Sea Rufuses no River' Were exceptional albums to me. I was in my early 20's then, and loved his writing in them. I'll have a close look at this book then, I was thinking of exchanging it, but as you say, it may indeed be an excellent read.
Thanks.

 

[idealassets]

I mention the litany of woes for the San Francisco band in 1967, Moby Grape, who signed a contract with their manager who fronted the expenses of the band but took a huge cut of their successful proceeds when they rose in stardom. He even maintained ownership of the band name though well into the second millennium. Most of these band members are alive, and unfortunately near penniless today. Back in the day, Moby Grape was just as prominent as the folks that today are very well off.

Check out one of their recodings from their first album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3mvgE3RaPQ

Happy New Year,
Craig

 

[Los Angeles]

Here's my contribution to the Bad Music Decision talk: The huge price leap from cassette to CD's - a system that cost much LESS to produce and needed to be replaced MORE OFTEN due to warping and scratching. Followed by - dragging their feet for 10 years in figuring out how to monetize web distribution. They just wanted the internet to go away so they could continue to abuse the fan base with inflated CD prices.

THAT is what I call a bad music decision. Everyone, and I mean everyone has suffered for it.

 

[chazmo]

LA, I would like to hear more about your thoughts on this, and I don't think I understand fully what you mean. (maybe a different thread?)

The transition to digital media in the 80s was inevitable, but are you saying the medium (Laser and/or Compact Disc) was a bad choice over cassette tape? I don't understand, exactly. Cost? Oh, very much too high; that I get... However, I love CDs because they are essentially permanent. I think it's great that I have CDs from the 80s and early 90s that are just as effective today. What I don't love is having overpayed for music I never (re)listen to. Anyone want Debbie Gibson's debut album/CD (what was I thinking)?

 

[fronobulax]

replaced MORE OFTEN due to warping and scratching.

Wow. Your experience is seriously different from mine. I have never replaced a CD because it became unplayable. The only CDs I have ever replaced were returned immediately because they wouldn't play. I have replaced too many cassette tapes to count. Most of them had some kind of mechanical failure - tape getting creased and the like - so maybe I neglected head and roller cleaning. While I have several LPs that could have been replaced due to the LP's surface conditions there was exactly one that got replaced and that was definitely due to play wear. So in terms of media durability for me moving from cassette to CD was a very good thing.

I agree with your point that if CD pricing had been different and presumably lower, music distribution might be very different today. To veer, my concerns with distribution are artist compensation and I don't see that being addressed in the change from cassette to CD or any business model where the lion's share of the proceeds still go to the entity that packages and distributes the product.

 

[coastie99]

A personal bad music decision.

I once bought an Alvin Stardust LP. Not a lot of people know that.

 

[walrus]

How about one of my favorite bands, Badfinger - because of management issues, and certainly other personal problems, two of the founding members committed suicide. Pete Ham, by the way, was the writer and singer of their hits, "No Matter What", "Baby Blue", and "Day After Day". The other big hit they had was written by Paul McCartney for them, "Come and Get It".

"In 1970, the band engaged American businessman Stan Polley to manage their commercial affairs. Over the next five years the band recorded several albums for Apple and toured extensively, but became embroiled in the chaos of Apple Records' dissolution. They signed to Warner Bros., but Polley's financial machinations resulted in a lawsuit by Warner Bros., over missing escrow account money. Warner's consequent withdrawal from market of the 1974 album, Wish You Were Here (seven weeks after its release), cut off the band's income. Three days before his 28th birthday, on 24 April 1975, Pete Ham committed suicide by hanging himself, leaving a note that included damning comments about Polley."

"Having seen Ham's body after Ham's wife had called him, Tom Evans reportedly never got over his friend's suicide, and was quoted as saying in darker moments, "I wanna be where he is." [1] On 19 November 1983, Evans also took his own life by hanging."

Bad decisions in general, I guess...

walrus

 

[Ross]

Imagine what might have been if they had tried Ginger Baker?

They would have gotten tribal war clubs. Kenny Jones in the Small Faces was a much more sophisticated drummer than Ginger Baker. Even back in the day, I didn't quite get why the rave for Ginger Baker, other than all the hype, and a number of long lasting redundant solos. Compare Ginger for example to Mitch Mitchell (Hendrix), and Johny Barbata of the Turtles (later Jefferson Starship). Then a little later came Danny Seraphine of Chicago. That's 4 drummers that had a much more sophisticated and musically accomplished technique, and up to date chops at the time vs. Ginger Baker.

Yes, I know, but what if....

I just read a review of a recently released film titled "Beware of Mr. Baker" featuring Ginger. Apparently he's as cantankerous as ever, living in South Africa. The film has interviews with Clapton & Bruce, as well as other drummers like Neil Peart. The title comes from a notice that's posted on the entrance gate to GB's land in SA.

 

[Los Angeles]

Apologies. I hadn't returned to this thread until it was bumped just now. I'll return and address the questions in a day or two.

 

[jmac]

Walrus,

Badfinger is a sad story all the way around. One thing I never understood, is why they didn't get to play a set at The concerts for Bangladesh? They were there as part of Harrison's backing band. Unlike Leon Russell and Billy Preston, they had hits and original music to promote. Why didn't Harrison give them some stage time?

 

[walrus]

Excellent question! I've never read anything about that one way or another. Pete Ham got center stage with Harrison on "Here Comes the Sun", but that's it. And Harrison never introduced him for that song, he just played with him "incognito".

Maybe it had to do with Ham's white suit! Here's a quote from "The Music of George Harrison" by Simon Leng (IMO, the best book on solo George Harrison):

"One of the best laughs of all was the result of Pete Ham's choice of suit." According to Joey Molland of Badfinger, "The only thing we were nervous about was that George and Pete both had white suits on! We though Pete had a lot of balls to do that!".

So maybe his choice of suit is a "bad music decision"...

walrus

 

[kitniyatran]

One that bums me, for the last 45 years or so, is Blue Cheer letting Leigh Stephens go. He was The Perfect Blue Cheer guitarist, & they never sounded as good, in my opinion, without him. Of course, there was the Problem of him being the only band member "sober" at gigs....

I'm still kind of bugged at the breakup of Buffalo Springfield, as well, & Most of what Steve Miller recorded after his 4th or fifth album(before The Joker & Take the Money & Run), aside from "Born To Be Blue".

 

[littlesongs]

Apologies. I hadn't returned to this thread until it was bumped just now. I'll return and address the questions in a day or two.

I'll put in a few cents in the meantime. The gap in reliable portable music delivery between the industry dumping the cassette and the advent of the MP3 was infuriating to avid consumers. Granted, there were independent acts in the K7 community that finally found some well deserved attention due to the lack of new commercial releases. But on balance, the changes did not do anyone in the broader music industry a favor by forcing someone to choose between an aging Walkman or a pricey CD player that was advert - i - zed as be - ing immune to skip - ping.

For the road, you could have a cassette player in your car that got hot in the summer and sometimes ate tapes. Or, a CD player that skipped a lot until someone smashed your windows to steal it.

Vinyl and cassette were partners in a system that worked well for music lovers. Records were for home. Cassettes were for the road. Back in the good old days, you bought the record album, dubbed it to cassette, and went on your merry way. Then came the dark ages of unreliable portable CD players and expensive flaky CD-Rs that wouldn't play. Concurrently, there was the much improved, but poorly executed Mini-Disc phenomenon, which was followed by a concerted effort on the part of the industry to kill both vinyl and cassettes for good. Sales continued to nose dive.

Now, you can buy the record album and it comes with a code inside. You download a digital copy, put it into your iPod, and go on your merry way. Records are for home. Lossless files are for the road. Took them a good long while to get it, but they seem to get it. For the moment at least. Next week could be different.

 

[southernGuild]

Thats a great rundown Dave. I totally relate, as I did much of that myself ( and My albums are still good as a result).
I regret the years I spent good money on cassettes only......They never really lasted long, even with the top notch players at the time ( The auto flpi tape, and cue to song) When I finally purchased a good Turntable, I started buying albums again. Most of what I had only on cassette, I have replaced with Vinyl, and often CD.
Also, Great background on Badfinger guys. Great band! Sad story.

 

[Los Angeles]

Thank you littlesongs!

My information is from memory, I no longer have the real data, so take it with a grain of salt. 9 years ago I moved to LA and one of my marketable "skills" is that I know the program PowerPoint like the back of my own hand. I'd put myself at the top 2% of power users nationwide. So I make it to my new city but have no job - so I do what nearly every other hayseed off the bus does - I freelance.

That's when I got a call to show up one day at Sony Music. Now this is right around 2004-2005 and the writing is on the wall at this point, and top executives are giving each other presentations on what's been going on and offering stupid ideas on how to fix it (usually the "fix" was to increase the legal department budget - they honestly thought they could sue their way back to the top - not too bright, but I kept my mouth closed).

So anyway, here's a rundown of what I remember:

1) CDs were far cheaper to manufacture than both LPs and Cassettes.

2) The release of the CD format represented the biggest jump in product pricing in the history of the music industry. So how do you make something cheaper and charge more for it at the same time??? Easy: marketing. This brings us to ...

3) CDs were marketed as and consumers believed that they were a permanent, "lossless," archival format. But that's only if you take delicate care of them. People didn't. They wanted them to be portable and carried them around, inevitably ruining them. They even got ruined inside the players.

4) Replacement rates for CDs were higher than cassettes! People would buy the same CD over and over again as they got lost, scratched or stolen.

5) Combine 1-4 and you have a huge profit fire storm on your hands. 1989 to 1999 is an incredibly profitable time in music business history.

6) The numbers all indicate that the people love CDs and can't get enough - the machine was now CD dependent. The entire industry ebbs and flows based on the format and the economic power of people to buy more.

7) Sony, like so many other companies, was very diverse. They had a dedicated technology section that wanted to develop and sell products, but unfortunately, the new digital direction on the horizon was in direct conflict with the content (CD) sales machine. Sony, as well as many other tech companies like them, fumbles the ball.

8 ) Apple "ruins" everything. They offered a truly portable hard drive that you could carry around and listen to. And they also provided a completely new marketplace with online sales via iTunes. Apple has nothing to lose, they are gambling other people's money. They have no internal conflict of interest.

In the end, the price of CD's were artificially inflated, creating a false sense of worth and a bubble of profit. The public eventually figured it out.