Bad Music Decisions

[Scratch]

Elvis leaving rock and roll to be a "B" movie star...
walrus

Elvis going into the Army, with the Colonel's blessing, was a horrible move. It took him years to come back in the music field.

Elvis didn't have a choice. Classified 1A under the selective service system (no physical defects preventing service), he had two choices. Be drafted or choose to serve in any of the armed forces. As a draftee he was required to serve two years. If he had joined, he would have faced a four-year commitment.

 

[tjmangum]

Elvis leaving rock and roll to be a "B" movie star...
walrus

Elvis going into the Army, with the Colonel's blessing, was a horrible move. It took him years to come back in the music field.

Elvis didn't have a choice. Classified 1A under the selective service system (no physical defects preventing service), he had two choices. Be drafted or choose to serve in any of the armed forces. As a draftee he was required to serve two years. If he had joined, he would have faced a four-year commitment.

Yes, he was drafted, but was offered the choice to spend his time in Special Services entertaining the troops. He chose not to take that route.

 

[Scratch]

True that. He received lots of respect for his selfless decision. Service above self is what it is all about.

 

[Ross]

..... a lot of stars from the '70s and '80s got handled badly by their managers.

John Fogarty signed over to his manager the rights to all of the Creedence songs that he had written. Thereafter, he had to pay royalties whenever he performed them.

In about 1970, Fleetwood Mac signed over ownership of the band name to their manager. Later, they had to sue to get their name back.

 

[chazmo]

..... a lot of stars from the '70s and '80s got handled badly by their managers.

John Fogarty signed over to his manager the rights to all of the Creedence songs that he had written. Thereafter, he had to pay royalties whenever he performed them.

In about 1970, Fleetwood Mac signed over ownership of the band name to their manager. Later, they had to sue to get their name back.

That is really messed up. And, that definitely qualifies for a bad music decision!!

 

[fronobulax]

It seems that for many artists of the time signing with a record label was not the wisest business decision, at least in hindsight when it appeared that the bands trusted the wrong people.

Two more examples - the fact that Parliament and Funkadelic are two different acts with virtually the same personnel stems from legal issues with a record company. Paul Kanter did not ask for a songwriting credit for "Wooden Ships" on the CS&N album because Jefferson Airplane was engaged in litigation with their management and being credited would have dragged CS&N into the lawsuit.

 

[adorshki]

I don't know a lot of stories like that, but Jeff Beck turned down the Rolling Stones... I'm not sure that was a bad music decision, but it was definitely a bad financial one.

As described here, Beck never went in thinking he was actually going to an audition, he just thought he was gonna guest on a couple of tracks which he's always quite happy to do.
I suspect even the Stones realized Beck wasn't prepared to be anybody's "sideman" ever again so the idea that they were even intending to actually audition him seems like a myth to me.
Bad financial decision? I suspect he's the guy laughing all the way to the bank right about now... doesn't have to worry about paying a monstrous management and support organization like Rolling Stones Inc. does.... :wink:
Anyway, just a 40 year fan of Jeff's opinion... :wink:

 

[bluesypicky]

I don't know a lot of stories like that, but Jeff Beck turned down the Rolling Stones...

Thank the music Gods for that!!!
But anyway, had he accepted the gig, it wouldn't have lasted long, this guy had too much creative genius in him to remain "stuck" as just one member of a band for a lifetime, no matter how popular the band.

 

[adorshki]

I don't know a lot of stories like that, but Jeff Beck turned down the Rolling Stones...

Thank the music Gods for that!!!
But anyway, had he accepted the gig, it wouldn't have lasted long, this guy had too much creative genius in him to remain "stuck" as just one member of a band for a lifetime, no matter how popular the band.

Had far less to do with his with his creative genius than with his single-minded vision and determination to be in complete control of achieving it as described in that link I posted above.... :wink:

 

[adorshki]

Lenny Kravitz covering American Woman.
Big Brother and the Holding Company snubbing DA Pennebaker's original filming release for the Monterey Pop festival, resulting in Janis Joplin getting all the screen time for the second additional show they signed up for.........speaking of which:
Pete Townshend flipping coin with Jimi Hendrix to see who was gonna close the show....(neither one of 'em actually wanted to follow the other, if I remember the myth correctly)
John Lennon deciding to postpone his announcement he was quitting the Beatles, at Paul's request... :evil:
Joni Mitchell, The Doors, The Moody Blues turning down a slot at Woodstock, due to scheduling conflicts....
ShaNaNa being offered a slot at Woodstock.
Did somebody say David Lee Roth? Yes.
Any of Eric Burdon's attempts to resurrect the Animals after 1969.

 

[bluesypicky]

I don't know a lot of stories like that, but Jeff Beck turned down the Rolling Stones...

Thank the music Gods for that!!!
But anyway, had he accepted the gig, it wouldn't have lasted long, this guy had too much creative genius in him to remain "stuck" as just one member of a band for a lifetime, no matter how popular the band.

Had far less to do with his with his creative genius than with his single-minded vision and determination to be in complete control of achieving it as described in that link I posted above.... :wink:

Same difference.
His "single-minded" vision is the consequence of his creative genius, and need to explore musically, which once again, couldn't have been a fit in a "one-band-forever" setting.
But enough intellectual masturbation and semantics, bottom line is we got from him the most he could give, thanks to his self management, and I believe we're both thankful for that.
I know I am. :wink:

 

[adorshki]

bottom line is we got from him the most he could give, thanks to his self management, and I believe we're both thankful for that.
I know I am. :wink:

Which ironically reminds me of another bad musical decision...if they hadn't fired Brian Jones the whole question mighta been moot..... :evil:
(no insult to Mick Taylor, though. None of his doing, and I love the leads on "Can't You hear Me Knocking" on Sticky Fingers....a genuine one-take wonder. )
On the other hand, I do know the story that part of the rationale was supposed to be that getting Brian a visa for an upcoming US tour was likely to be problematic if not impossible. So whattaya gonna do?
That leads me to their decision to go on with the show at Altamont after the Hell's Angels had already committed assault on Marty Balin of the Airplane early in the day, although again, given the circumstances, cancelling might have been a guarantee of a riot.
Whattaya gonna do?

Finally, after remembering that they inadvertently signed over the copyrights to their entire catalog (up through Get Yer YaYa's Out) to their manager Allan Klein, who then abdicated his job, it occurs to me that the Rolling Stones may have made more bad musical (and business) decisions than any other band in history. Of course, in fairness, they've also had the most time to do it in. :lol:
Doesn't mean I love 'em any less .
Just not as much as our boy Jeffery. :lol:

 

[spiderman]

Not as bad as some of the other ones, but when Steve Goodman wrote the famous additional verse to "You Never Even Call Me By My Name", he got stuck and John Prine helped out. Steve asked John if he wanted co-credit, and John said no, since he felt it was disrespectful to country music, or some such thing. After David Allan Coe had the hit, Steve went back to John and said do you want the credit now, and John said in effect I made my bed and I'll lie in it.

Harmony H-173 bought in 1960 (retired), Alvarez AC60S 2008, Eastman AC320ce 2009 "Hybrid", Guild D25M 1974, Martin Grand J35E 2009, Martin D12-20 1970, Martin OM-21 2009, Martin 00-15M Custom (full body gloss, wide neck) 2011, Martin 00-15M Custom (12 fret, wide neck, solid peghead) 2012, Voyage-air VAOM-06 2010
"I'm glad there are a lot of guitar players pursuing technique as diligently as they possibly can, because it leaves this whole other area open to people like me."

 

[idealassets]

but whatever Pete Best did to PO Paul & John, wasn't a great career move either

Reportedly, Pete Best was an excellent drummer and upstaged the other fab 4 at a lot of gigs, which resulted in a limited career with the Beatles. If you think about it the very early Beatles were somewhat elementary in the complexity of their material, being seemingly a vocal group. Ringo was allowed in due to being somewhat of a lower rated musician than the other 3. Also he was not at the time quite as successful with the ladies as Pete Best.

But the Beatles sure hit the winning combination, and you can't blame the men out front for assembling such a great combo. I can definitely recall at least 3 generations within my own family that did not miss the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. That included my Grandma, who had also just purchased a new 1964 yellow Ford Mustang about that time.

Craig

 

[idealassets]

Imagine what might have been if they had tried Ginger Baker?

They would have gotten tribal war clubs. Kenny Jones in the Small Faces was a much more sophisticated drummer than Ginger Baker. Even back in the day, I didn't quite get why the rave for Ginger Baker, other than all the hype, and a number of long lasting redundant solos. Compare Ginger for example to Mitch Mitchell (Hendrix), and Johny Barbata of the Turtles (later Jefferson Starship). Then a little later came Danny Seraphine of Chicago. That's 4 drummers that had a much more sophisticated and musically accomplished technique, and up to date chops at the time vs. Ginger Baker.

Yes, I know, but what if....

 

[walrus]

I post this with all due respect, Craig, but the opposite of what you have said is true. In the world of drummers, Ringo is well respected for his unique style of "fills", much of which has to do with the fact the he plays left-handed.

And although there is some truth to the "he attracted more girls" story for Pete Best, it was George Martin who ultimately said they should use a session drummer when they first recorded for him, and that Pete could not carry the beat that well. Martin even used a session drummer for one of the two takes of "Love Me Do", until he came to realize what Ringo was adding to the sound. You can get both versions easily today if you want to compare.

Pete also refused to get on the Beatle bandwagon in regard to losing the greasy hair look, etc.

Ringo was already good friends with the Beatles, they liked his sort of "jazzy" style of drumming, and they loved him as a person.

I have never heard anything to the effect the Pete "upstaged" the Beatles with his drumming - maybe he "pulled more birds", but it had nothing to with his drumming.

Would the Beatles have been who they became with Pete Best on drums? I doubt it. Like the other three Beatles, if you listen to their music, you can see that Ringo evolved with them - listen to the understated drums on "A Day In The Life", or the unique fills on "Rain", and "Strawberry Fields". Perfect for the song.

He was no Keith Moon, but what he did was a perfect fit for their music.

I would say swapping Pete for Ringo belongs in a different thread, "Best Music Decisions" (pun intended!).

walrus

 

[adorshki]

I post this with all due respect, Craig, but the opposite of what you have said is true. I would say swapping Pete for Ringo belongs in a different thread, "Best Music Decisions" (pun intended!).

That's how I remember it too, the only other detail I could add is that Ringo also already had quite a few fans as the drummer for Rory Storm and the Hurricanes, so the Beatles gained that following when they signed him on as well.
Pretty sure that's in Hunter Davies' book, it's where I picked up most of my early Beatles background.
Re the observatons about Ginger Baker, I don't think the other drummers he was compared to were in his league as a composer and master of unusual signatures and time changes, such as "Dance the Night Away" and "As You Said", and his compositions "Passing the Time", "Those were the Days", and "What a Bringdown". It's kind of ironic that although he and Bruce were reportedly at each other's throats frequently, Ginger was probably the best drummer for Bruce's compositions.
Anyway, just had to point out a couple of his strengths in my humble opinion.

 

[idealassets]

I post this with all due respect, Craig, but the opposite of what you have said is true. In the world of drummers

It really doesn't matter, since the original points were something like- "..Pete Best blew it by getting the other Beatles PO...", and "..what if Ginger Baker was the drummer in Small Faces.."

On the topic of the drum fills that Ringo and Ginger Baker did- not soon afterwards virtually every garage band or cover band drummer could readily do any of those fills, but could only produce watered down simplistic versions of what some of the truly skilled drummers put out.

As for whatever other point I made, I stated that the techniques used were more advanced, as done by: Mitch Mitchell (Hendrix), Danny Seraphine (Chicago), Kenny Jones (Small Faces), and John Barbata (Turtles, Jefferson Starship)Their more advanced techniques also fit their group's musical styles quite well. There are very few drummers that can accurately do a good amount of what these drummers created for their respective group's material.

I may have a few $X,XXX still banked from my own drumming in the day, which included a lot of Jeff Beck, Hendrix, Allman Bro's, & Fleetwood Mac material, but we all have our own preferences in drumming.

As for my own Bad Music Decisions, I can tell after the fact that a few club owners really preferred to hear "Louie Louie", and not Hendrix's version of "Hey Joe".

Craig

 

[walrus]

"There are very few drummers that can accurately do a good amount of what these drummers created for their respective group's material."

Exactly! It's all about what is best for the group as a whole, the group's sound, etc. That was my point with my Ringo "defense".

An analogy might be when Kenny Jones replaced the late Keith Moon in the Who - a great drummer, but not the same style, etc. I just read Townshend's autobiography where he discusses this - Moon "drove" the band unlike anyone else could.

Another example might be Charlie Watts - who Mick Jagger said "was" the Rolling Stones. But is he the same kind of drummer as Moon, or Baker? No way - but he fit into the Stones' style exactly right.

By the way, when does it become a "Bad Music Decision" to keep calling yourself The Who, even though two of your original members are long gone? I'd still enjoy their music if they were called Daltrey/Townshend or something...

walrus

 

[idealassets]

Moon "drove" the band unlike anyone else could

This is very true. I do miss his playing. Keith Moon did a lot of innovative (and difficult) drumming. Daltry/Townsend do look quite energetic in their recent performances. Not to mention Mick Jagger prancing around quite well.