Mark Guitar Rosettes, Decals or Inlays?

[gjmalcyon]

I think I see the top's grain lines peeking through the decal here:

 

[adorshki]

The catalog has some ambiguity in my opinion about whether the statement applied to the entire Mark line and it was also a 1976 catalog so something may have changed.

Both the The Mark 2 and Mark 3 write-ups in that catalog specifically say "mosaic inlay"; however, this only reminds me that we've seen old specs in catalogs before. So there's yet another variable as to when the decals were actually introduced, since it looks like the "evidence pics" show they did in fact stray from Mr Greco's ideals by the late '70's.

See Sal's message above...

Yeah, I'm mortified.....is nothing sacred anymore?

one thing puzzles me on this Mark II below. Why is the bare wood exposed but the rosette seems to be not destroyed if it is a simple decal?


Ralf

Many plastics would be durable enough to hold up even at thicknesses less than a sheet of copier paper: PVC's and polypropylenes in particular, if it's actually a pressure-sensitive adhesive decal, which I'm beginning to suspect it is.

I think I see the top's grain lines peeking through the decal here:

A-yup.

Hey gang. This is my Mark VI Artist Special restored by Dave Jacobs and company. I do think this is a decal, not wood marquetry. But, I'm not sure. If you look at the edges next to the fretboard it appears like the soundboard wood is underneath. What do you think?

I think that's inlay. When blown up, the edges of the top around the circumference show the tell-tale signs of routed edges among other details, but still, need a better close-up to be sure.

I think the argument about Carlo Greco doing fancy rosette handwork here on the Marks is not borne out by reality.

I didn't say (or mean to imply) Greco did the inlays himself, just that as an old school craftsman he was an expert at it, and I didn't believe he'd build (or supervise) building a guitar with decals. Pg 134 of the Guild Guitar Book says: ..."conform proudly to the Classic tradition in every detail." (My emphasis, attributed to a '62 catalog and inlaid rosette still explicitly stated for the 2,3, & 4 models in the '76 catalog linked in the OP)

But Greco never was "the boss", either. Pg 15 in the GGB has an outline of his progression of responsibilities at Guild.

I think they did use marquetry on all Mark models at first (after all they date back to '61) and then cheaped out at some later point, but not on the high-enders.

 

[Sal]

So there's yet another variable as to when the decals were actually introduced, since it looks like the "evidence pics" show they did in fact stray from Mr Greco's ideals by the late '70's.

I think they did use marquetry on all Mark models at first (after all they date back to '61) and then cheaped out at some later point, but not on the high-enders.

Nope and nope. The decals were on the Mark I and Mark II models from the start. My Mark II example above is a '63.

 

[adorshki]

Nope and nope. The decals were on the Mark I and Mark II models from the start. My Mark II example above is a '63.

Another famous crash-and-burn on my part.

 

[Elderguilder]

In hopes to help the question at hand I've taken a more hi-resolution photo of the rosette of my 1977 Mark II, which is a different rosette from the ones immediately above. Its a 5 MB photo so to assist in getting to the image I have it at the bottom of my story about my first public performance, and click on the thumbnail for the hi-res copy to see a much better detailed viewing. If I can be taught of a way to display a photo inside a post with a hyperlink to the hi-res copy rather than my unwieldy way described, I'd appreciate it.

 

[fronobulax]

In hopes to help the question at hand I've taken a more hi-resolution photo of the rosette of my 1977 Mark II, which is a different rosette from the ones immediately above. Its a 5 MB photo so to assist in getting to the image I have it at the bottom of my story about my first public performance, and click on the thumbnail for the hi-res copy to see a much better detailed viewing. If I can be taught of a way to display a photo inside a post with a hyperlink to the hi-res copy rather than my unwieldy way described, I'd appreciate it.

In the row of editing icons there is a rectangle that is supposed to make you think of a picture. Press it and you can choose to link to an image hosted elsewhere or upload an image from your device to LTG.

 

[Elderguilder]

In the row of editing icons there is a rectangle that is supposed to make you think of a picture. Press it and you can choose to link to an image hosted elsewhere or upload an image from your device to LTG.

I knew there was a way, I just needed a guide, said the blind man to his deaf son.

 

[fronobulax]

I have no clue how the a rosette mosaic is finished in spite of watching people do install them in New Hartford. So...

Is the finish applied over the rosette? Specifically if there are things that look like scratches could they be scratches in the finish or are the evidence in support of the decal hypothesis?

I would assume that the fingerboard is covering a portion of the rosette. In the event that teh fingerboard has to be removed would that be easier or harder with a decal, as opposed to a mosaic? Does it even matter if there is a layer of finish between the rosette and the fingerboard?

 

[Elderguilder]

In the row of editing icons there is a rectangle that is supposed to make you think of a picture. Press it and you can choose to link to an image hosted elsewhere or upload an image from your device to LTG.

One question, if I may. It is the 5.5MB hi-res file is this large: 3207 x 2860, which will show the detail I intend to offer for evaluation, and relieve the Forum's servers of the file overhead since it is already on my website. Your reply has the picture but not the hi-res version, so I'm not sure I comprehend the instructions to create a thumbnail and a link to a hi-res off site. I'm reading the post How to Use Attachments so maybe there is what I need in there. If this post should be relocated, please feel free.

**** UPDATED ****
I found the enlargement button so I now see how the hi-res version can be seen.

 

[fronobulax]

You discovered the magnifying glass.

Image size and storage are above my paygrade but the system will not let you upload an image to LTG if it is "too large".

 

[adorshki]

I have no clue how the a rosette mosaic is finished in spite of watching people do install them in New Hartford. So...

Is the finish applied over the rosette? Specifically if there are things that look like scratches could they be scratches in the finish or are the evidence in support of the decal hypothesis?

Yes an inlaid rosette would normally be finished over just like it was plain top wood.

I'd be very surprised if a decal was "inlaid" unless it was pretty thick stock in the first place, and as far as finishing over a decal: ?????

Obviously it'd need to be something that wouldn't melt under the NCL, and saying that stirs a vague recollection that one member purchased a rooftop logo decal 4 or 5 years ago and intended to finish over it, and think at least one other member corroborated that it "would work".
Don't recall ever seeing any later updates to the contrary.

Re the scratches in the photo, they appear to me to be continuous across the rosette and "bare top" so suspect what we have is a finished over rosette with the scratches being in the finish. Looks like pick scuffing actually.

What's still somewhat puzzling to me is the rosette appears to be perfectly flush with top. If it was a decal I'd expect to see at least a little clue that it was sitting on the top, whether finished over or not.

Nothing beats a Mark 1 Human Eyeball in a situation like this, although I applaud @Elderguilder 's going the extra mile in providing a hi-res pic to assist in the "analysis".

I would assume that the fingerboard is covering a portion of the rosette.

Marquetry rosettes aren't a full circle, there's usually a gap under the fingerboard to allow some leeway in fitting it after the top is routed for it but yes the gap'd go under the board.

In the event that the fingerboard has to be removed would that be easier or harder with a decal, as opposed to a mosaic?

Good question, I'm thinking a decal may be marginally easier to work with, only in not having to worry about possibly pulling up rosette when taking off 'board. In fact a decal may not even go under the fingerboard at all, as it might be a lot easier to cut to precise fit along the fretboard edge, I'd think.

As i think abut it, I'm thinking you wouldn't want a decal under the board in any case, for the same reason you wouldn't want to glue the board to a finished top: glue bond would be compromised in that area.

Does it even matter if there is a layer of finish between the rosette and the fingerboard?

One wouldn't want any finish on either gluing surface, the top or the fingerboard it. It would prevent proper bonding.
So finish is typically applied after neck's already been joined to body, with fingerboard masked off.

 

[chazmo]

Well, it was nice just playing my Mark for a little while.

I still think it's a decal, Al. And, at least after Dave's restoration, it's definitely finished over.

 

[adorshki]

Well, it was nice just playing my Mark for a little while.

I still think it's a decal, Al. And, at least after Dave's restoration, it's definitely finished over.

Oh I accept a lot of 'em got decals now, still think at least some of 'em got real marquetry, but now believe I know why Greco left Guild:
It was those damn decals.

 

[fronobulax]

Catalog page from 1968

from https://www.gad.net/Blog/2010/08/18/guild-guitar-catalog-1968/

Mrs. Fro's Mark IV-R is from 1978 and I can't tell by inspection, for certain, whether it is a decal or inlay. Magnifying glass and extra lighting didn't help. I compared it to another guitar that did have a definite inlay and by comparison a decal might be more likely. The MK IV rosette is "busier" which suggests "more work". But I don't have any non-destructive ways to get a definitive answer.

 

[RBSinTo]

After reading all these posts I'm more confused than ever.
Inlay or decal? Live or Memorex? Less filling or more taste?
But I do have a related question that I hope someone here might be able to answer.
My GAD jf 30 jumbo ( which has been discussed and pictured in another thread) has a lovely patterned center stripe on the back, but unlike other models doesn't have the stripe along the spine of the neck.
Does anyone know of a source of adhesive vinyl patterned striping similar to the rosette patterns discussed here?
While I doubt I would monkey with the finish (which was beautifully done), it bothers me that despite searching, I've been unable to source it.
Please and thanks,
RBSinTo

 

[chazmo]

Well, without cutting into it, I think my Mark VI Artist Special has a decal. I will admit it is very hard to tell one way or the other though, parroting what Fronobulax said earlier. The marketing literature clearly disagrees with me.

 

[adorshki]

Well, without cutting into it, I think my Mark VI Artist Special has a decal. I will admit it is very hard to tell one way or the other though, parroting what Fronobulax said earlier. The marketing literature clearly disagrees with me.

Yeah, the primary reason I believe at least some of 'em did get inlay, but the catalogs have had errors before......

 

[adorshki]

Mrs. Fro's Mark IV-R is from 1978 and I can't tell by inspection, for certain, whether it is a decal or inlay. Magnifying glass and extra lighting didn't help. I compared it to another guitar that did have a definite inlay and by comparison a decal might be more likely. The MK IV rosette is "busier" which suggests "more work". But I don't have any non-destructive ways to get a definitive answer.

Higher magnification? Try to see if there's visible grain in the blocks? (Wouldn't expect 'em to try to reproduce that on a decal.)

Should we try to crowd-fund a bigger (magnifying) glass for you?

 

[fronobulax]

See https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/mkiii-classical-1986.208800/#post-1972473 for inlay on an '86 MK III

 

[Brad Little]

A little long, but if you don't want to watch the whole thing, start at around 50 minutes. You can see that the process would result in rosettes for several guitars.