Mark Guitar Rosettes, Decals or Inlays?

[Brad Little]

....
Hey gang. This is my Mark VI Artist Special restored by Dave Jacobs and company. I do think this is a decal, not wood marquetry. But, I'm not sure. If you look at the edges next to the fretboard it appears like the soundboard wood is underneath. What do you think? I think the argument about Carlo Greco doing fancy rosette handwork here on the Marks is not borne out by reality.

I'd be surprised if a Mark VI had a decal, especially one from '67.

 

[Elderguilder]

I guess we'll just have to ask for volunteers to take a saw through their Mark's sound hole and cut out a slice to see if the rosette has a thickness to it. I'll stand by.

 

[adorshki]

Well, it was nice just playing my Mark for a little while.

I still think it's a decal, Al. And, at least after Dave's restoration, it's definitely finished over.

Chaz, this slipped by me earlier, but if Dave Jacobs restored it, he should know what it is, if he can remember, right?
(I'm guessing he'd remember a job like that one)

 

[fronobulax]

The truly motivated can use their forensic photo analysis skills on this one, posted in https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index...od-project-not-playable-needs-new-top.208834/

'64 MK V

 

[Elderguilder]

The truly motivated can use their forensic photo analysis skills on this one, posted in https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index...od-project-not-playable-needs-new-top.208834/

'64 MK V

Sure looks like a decal, per the inside ring around the sound hole since it is applied in a way that it actually meets the edge of the sound hole!!!

 

[chazmo]

^ Sure does. Al, yeah, I'll give Tom Jacobs and Dave Jacobs a shout to see if they know for certain.

As Fro pointed out, this one is certainly not decal... https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/mkiii-classical-1986.208800/#post-1972473

 

[SFIV1967]

Sure looks like a decal, ...

I'm still not convinced, especially as this is a Mark V. My guess is a big pre-fabricated ring layed in the top. How it shifted over the soundhole near the fretboard I don't know, but on the lower half towards the bridge the lacquer is missing but the red color and the squares are still there.



Ralf

 

[GardMan]

How it shifted over the soundhole near the fretboard I don't know

Maybe it didn't... maybe the sound hole "moved"... as in was sanded or enlarged in response to damage on the treble side.

Hard to tell given the angle of the picture, but the end of the fretboard also looks off-center from the soundhole (compare the where the "corner" of the fretboard is relative to the soundhole on the bass vs treble sides).

 

[SFIV1967]

I guess we'll just have to ask for volunteers to take a saw through their Mark's sound hole and cut out a slice to see if the rosette has a thickness to it. I'll stand by.

O.k, from this thread. That's a very cool picture of how that Mark V rosette is construced! First time I see that like this!
I wonder what @F-412Spec recon the rosette was originally made from?
Here I'm not sure what I see since also on the missing rosette areas I see a pattern and color on the bare wood.

EDIT: See Hans' post #51 below, he said "water soluble dyes...colored wood blocks"



Ralf

 

[Heath]

I may be able to contribute to this thread. I have a 1964 Mark IV that appears to have it’s top finish removed(?). I’ve taken a shot of the top and then some close ups of the inlays.

 

[hansmoust]

Here I'm not sure what I see since also on the missing rosette areas I see a pattern and color on the bare wood.



Ralf

Here's a detail shot of a similar rosette on another Mark V.

The pattern that you see on the bare wood is caused by the water soluble dyes that are used for the colored wood blocks. The dyes leak onto the spruce top when the rosette is glued in place.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[SFIV1967]

...colored wood blocks. The dyes leak onto the spruce top when the rosette is glued in place.

Thanks for the explanation!
One more question. Were those rosette rings pre-fabricated at Guild (or externally) or really inlayed little piece by piece into the top?

Ralf

 

[SFIV1967]

I’ve taken a shot of the top and then some close ups of the inlays.

Great! A real piece of art with all the many rings and pieces!



Ralf

 

[MacGuild]

My dear ol' MK1, Hoboken, CA-269, not sure of the year.
Legacy pick-wear says.... decal. No surprise there, this is only confirming what has already been suggested.
(More on this piece in the Tech Shop Forum shortly; in need of some advice from you gurus!)

 

[F-412Spec]

I wonder what @F-412Spec recon the rosette was originally made from?
Here I'm not sure what I see since also on the missing rosette areas I see a pattern and color on the bare wood.

EDIT: See Hans' post #51 below, he said "water soluble dyes...colored wood blocks"

I've attached more photos of the top and missing rosette section.

There's nothing special about Guild rosettes. The rosette of this (Guild MKV) guitar is a typical classical guitar rosette, made up of hundreds (sometimes thousands) of small blocks of wood. The blocks are crosscut on the end grain, from small sticks. The construction process is shown (as noted above) here: and it's used commonly throughout the classical guitar world, even on some of the cheapest guitars. We made classical rosettes like this in our very first guitar-making class decades ago at Orange Coast college.

As noted by Hans, (and visible in these pictures) the dyes from the rosette leach into the underlying spruce top when water-based glue is used to glue the dyed rosette into the inlay cavity.

Underlying grain patterns will show up in rosettes when water-based glue is used to install the rosette and the rosette pieces are slightly displaced by the grain pattern. These grain patterns also show up due to dehydration shrinkage. Wood rosettes are often incomplete under fretboards and the cavity left open - see last picture. Click the picture for close-up viewing.

 

[William]

Hey gang. This is my Mark VI Artist Special restored by Dave Jacobs and company. I do think this is a decal, not wood marquetry. But, I'm not sure. If you look at the edges next to the fretboard it appears like the soundboard wood is underneath. What do you think? I think the argument about Carlo Greco doing fancy rosette handwork here on the Marks is not borne out by reality.

Hi would you ever sell your beautiful Mark VI?

 

[SFIV1967]

The construction process is shown (as noted above) here:

Thanks for sharing that video, that is an impressive amount of work and explains it very good!

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

Hi would you ever sell your beautiful Mark VI?

Hello, William... Thank you for the compliment.

Just to be clear, it's a Mark VI Artist Special, which if I recall correctly is neither exactly a Mark VI nor a Mark VII. Tom Jacobs restored it from being a dumpster find. He and I discussed it many years ago at one of the LMG events, where he was talking to the Guild folks about getting some Brazilian from their stash to fix it. In any case, I can't recall all the details, but it is a beautiful guitar.

As to whether I'd part with it... Thanks for asking, William, but this one stays with me. Best wishes in the hunt.

 

[William]

Hello, William... Thank you for the compliment.

Just to be clear, it's a Mark VI Artist Special, which if I recall correctly is neither exactly a Mark VI nor a Mark VII. Tom Jacobs restored it from being a dumpster find. He and I discussed it many years ago at one of the LMG events, where he was talking to the Guild folks about getting some Brazilian from their stash to fix it. In any case, I can't recall all the details, but it is a beautiful guitar.

As to whether I'd part with it... Thanks for asking, William, but this one stays with me. Best wishes in the hunt.

Hi thank you for the note and I completely understand….should you ever change your mind I can start at $3K without looking. Does your guitar have the longer scale length? I am really after a Mark VII like probably everyone but thanks for the note and take care…thank you. Bill B.

Hello, William... Thank you for the compliment.

Just to be clear, it's a Mark VI Artist Special, which if I recall correctly is neither exactly a Mark VI nor a Mark VII. Tom Jacobs restored it from being a dumpster find. He and I discussed it many years ago at one of the LMG events, where he was talking to the Guild folks about getting some Brazilian from their stash to fix it. In any case, I can't recall all the details, but it is a beautiful guitar.

As to whether I'd part with it... Thanks for asking, William, but this one stays with me. Best wishes in the hunt.

yay thank you…..is it a longer scale length ? I completely understand and just wanted to check….if you change your mind I would be interested as a serious collector and player of the Mark classicals. I am really looking for a Mark VII like most hah ….Take care.