J55-12 thoughts and picture of the neck angle

richt54

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Im interested in a Guild 12 string. Its a J55-12. Seller has good reviews. This guitar has been recently worked on. According to the seller, the luthier said it didn't need a neck reset. It was made in 1998. Here are pics of a good neck, bad neck and the neck on this guitar, this is the web address of the neck angle of the guitar https://images.reverb.com/image/upl...upersize/v1671843604/e8qgbl3nbdas3rs5uehd.jpg
 

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richt54

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Im interested in a Guild 12 string. Its a J55-12. Seller has good reviews. This guitar has been recently worked on. According to the seller, the luthier said it didn't need a neck reset. It was made in 1998. Here are pics of a good neck, bad neck and the neck on this guitar, this is the web address of the neck angle of the guitar https://images.reverb.com/image/upl...upersize/v1671843604/e8qgbl3nbdas3rs5uehd.jpg
this is a picture of the guitar via the web page https://images.reverb.com/image/upl...,t_large/v1669747726/bo36tvbgmarjgfee7klo.jpg
 

adorshki

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richt54

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That looks fine to me. As far as I can tell the straightedge is just at the top of the bridge right where it's supposed to be, or maybe just a 64th or less low? For a '98 12-string that's great. '98 was a very very good year for Westerly, too.
I appreciate the reply. J55-12 guitars have no history in the search. I guess they weren’t made very long. Somebody on this board listed a link that educated me to how to check neck angles and I really appreciated that. You guys are great.
 

West R Lee

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Rich, we've all got opinions and many times they differ, and that's what makes the world go around. When I see a listing, or a guitar in my hands, I'm very critical, especially of my own guitars, and I like them pretty pristine.

Having said that, with time on my hands, I went to the Reverb listing and looked at that JF55-12. Now I haven't been in the market for a used Guild in quite sometime, so I may be less than familiar with current pricing. These were my observations.

In his listing, he shows his paperwork from a repair job, and it's had the bridge reglued. It pulled up for a reason in my humble opinion, and I see some saddle, but it's been lowered substantially. I also see some finish checking on that guitar. I've owned a JF55 and a JF30-12, and I didn't sell either anywhere near his asking price, and they were both immaculate, but that too has been some years ago. Personally, for what he's asking, I think you can find a nicer guitar, though some may disagree. Regardless, it looks like it's had $700-$800 worth of work.

Some sure may disagree, but that's just my opinion.

West
 

kostask

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I haven't looked at the entire listing, but have looked at the picture of the guitars neck angle.

A couple of points arise immediately:

1. The saddle height is very low. Is this just a personal preference thing, or is there an attempt to compensate for a bad neck angle. As a follow on, the point where the straight edge is hitting the bridge is not entirely visible, being blocked by thicker D string. If you really wanted to show that the neck angle was good, you would certainly have changed the camera angle to show it more clearly.

2. I am not familiar with guitar pricing these days, but If you want to be sure of what you are getting, the guitar may need a neck reset in the not too distant future. Between the very low saddle, and the sort of unclear neck angle picture, I think there may be more to the neck angle issue to consider before assuming that everything is fine. I don't think that it would be a safe assumption to make that the neck angle is fine. The safest way to go is to assume that there will be an neck reset needed at some point in the near future, and budget for that. If the price of the guitar and the neck reset to follow together are within your budget, then it is between you and your wallet whether to go ahead or not. Even if the neck angle is perfectly fine (I suspect that it isn't, but its really hard to determine from the picture provided, so don't hold me to that), you will need at least a new saddle if you really intend to hear what the guitar is capable of, so there is between $50 and $100 right there. You would have to do some research to see what a reputable luthier will charge for a neck reset.
 
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richt54

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Rich, we've all got opinions and many times they differ, and that's what makes the world go around. When I see a listing, or a guitar in my hands, I'm very critical, especially of my own guitars, and I like them pretty pristine.

Having said that, with time on my hands, I went to the Reverb listing and looked at that JF55-12. Now I haven't been in the market for a used Guild in quite sometime, so I may be less than familiar with current pricing. These were my observations.

In his listing, he shows his paperwork from a repair job, and it's had the bridge reglued. It pulled up for a reason in my humble opinion, and I see some saddle, but it's been lowered substantially. I also see some finish checking on that guitar. I've owned a JF55 and a JF30-12, and I didn't sell either anywhere near his asking price, and they were both immaculate, but that too has been some years ago. Personally, for what he's asking, I think you can find a nicer guitar, though some may disagree. Regardless, it looks like it's had $700-$800 worth of work.

Some sure may disagree, but that's just my opinion.

West
Thanks for the feedback. For the record it wasn’t the bridge, it was the fretboard that needed regluing. The saddle is new from 6/22 which is when the work was done. I do not know the reason for a new saddle to be made intentionally low unless the neck angle is off or the preference of the player. But the pic he sent me per what I asked shows a very slight contact with the bridge by the straight edge. I’m not concerned about the slight checking on a 24 year old guitar. In regards to price I can see that just a few years ago the price of Guilds were a fair amount lower. But it’s the lowest price I could find on a top of the food chain 12 string Guild. If you have one or know of one please let me know. The seller does offer a 7 day return which I thought was very upstanding. The shop he sent it to for the repair seems very well thought of. But your feedback gives me more impetus to sit back and think.
 

richt54

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Lot's of great stuff in these Guild forum archives
 

wileypickett

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In the first pic it appears the straight-edge is about even with the top of the bridge. This would be ideal, UNLESS the straight-edge is resting on top of the bridge.

In the second photo the straight-edge appears to be hitting the bridge well below its centerline, as though the straight-edge is resting on the neck, which is the proper way to evaluate. This is not ideal.

Unless the first photo is meant to show where the straight-edge SHOULD be landing, and the second photo to show where it actually IS landing, I don't understand the disparity between the two.
 
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richt54

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In the first pic it appears the straight-edge is about even with the top of the bridge. This would be ideal, UNLESS the straight-edge is resting on top of the bridge.

In the second photo the straight-edge appears to be hitting the bridge well below its centerline, as though the straight-edge is resting on the neck, which is the proper way to evaluate. This is not ideal.

Unless the first photo is meant to show where the straight-edge SHOULD be landing, and the seccnd photo to show where it actually IS landing, I dont understand the disparity between the two.
yes, that was the point. the first one was where the straight edge was flush with the bridge and the second pic showed the straight edge towards the bottom third of the bridge. Then I gave the link to the neck measure of the guitar I was looking at. I couldn't get it into jpeg format so I just copy and pasted the link to the pic.
 

wileypickett

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Sorry for the misunderstanding!

IMO the bridge height, while not as high as it would have been when it left the factory, appears to be acceptable -- I have several guitars with lower saddles than that which play just fine -- and the string break angle, especially on the forward set of strings, looks good.

Considering the seven day inspection period, I'd say you're not risking much if you decide to take a flyer on it. Cost of return shipping maybe?
 

richardp69

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Sorry for the misunderstanding!

IMO the bridge height, while not as high as it would have been when it left the factory, appears to be acceptable -- I have several guitars with lower saddles than that which play just fine -- and the string break angle, especially on the forward set of strings, looks good.

Considering the seven day inspection period, I'd say you're not risking much if you decide to take a flyer on it. Cost of return shipping maybe?

Personally, this is some input I would trust
 

richt54

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That looks fine to me. As far as I can tell the straightedge is just at the top of the bridge right where it's supposed to be, or maybe just a 64th or less low? For a '98 12-string that's great. '98 was a very very good year for Westerly, too.
Why was 1998 a good year for Westerly? I think it was owned by Fender then. But what makes it good? Thanks
 

adorshki

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Why was 1998 a good year for Westerly? I think it was owned by Fender then. But what makes it good? Thanks
Yes it was owned by Fender from Nov. '95 to '14 (April IIRC?).

By '98 Fender had implemented QC checklists on the manufacturing line and was investing in revamping the brand, like bringing back electrics and starting the Nashville Custom shop. Morale was good and it showed in products like my '96 D25. You look inside it and there's nary a glue squeeze from the bracing or kerfing, all the seams are flush and perfectly tight, the fret ends line up perfectly beveled as you looked down the neck, little details like that.

I remember thinking to myself "Man they even made it spotless inside where hardly anybody ever looks, read between those lines....true pride in craftsmanship" (That was my first of 3 Guilds, all bought new)

One of our members who'd worked in Westerly at the time, Hideglue, made a statement that "QC reached its zenith under Fender". It caused a bit of argument when it was interpreted as meaning that those years produced "the best" guitars (although some of us did and still do do believe that, think @West R Lee still does).

Paul (Hideglue) had to take pains to explain that it was the checklist system that created high consistency and fewer "rejects" (which is what QC is all about), not that the guitars were necessarily "built better". They just formalized Guild's existing standards to ensure they got consistently applied.

Seeing the work that was done to that 12, I suspect something outside of normal wear and use may have caused that fretboard to come loose, but obviously somebody realized the instrument was worth fixing. Dealing with a fellow member also usually has pretty good results around here.

I used to think I'd prefer a "pristine" guitar but I've become more flexible. I get your desire to simply be sure you're getting good value for your hard earned money, and in the end only you can make that decision. I see this one as a "ready to play", no surprises since it's been gone over pretty thoroughly already. And yeah, lots of folks like their saddles a bit low, that's one reason the neck alignment check uses the top of the bridge. A low saddle and/or low action in and of themselves don't mean neck angle is bad. Only the alignment check will show if your geometry is good (and assuming bridge hasn't been shaved, although there are situations in which I'd even accept that as the most reasonable solution these days.)

FWIW I didn't think that saddle (oops, meant "bridge") has been shaved, looks pretty "fat" to me. And I judged the alignment of the straightedge in the pic by the fact you couldn't see any of it peeking out from under that obscuring string. It also looks nearly perfectly aligned with one of 'em on the top edge, so even allowing for slight angle-of-view distortion, that would indicate to me the ruler's hitting right at the top of the bridge or a few thousandths low maybe. I still think it's fine.

Good luck! ;)
 
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richt54

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Yes it was owned by Fender from Nov. '95 to '14 (April IIRC?).

By '98 Fender had implemented QC checklists on the manufacturing line and was investing in revamping the brand, like bringing back electrics and starting the Nashville Custom shop. Morale was good and it showed in products like my '96 D25. You look inside it and there's nary a glue squeeze from the bracing or kerfing, all the seams are flush and perfectly tight, the fret ends line up perfectly beveled as you looked down the neck, little details like that.

I remember thinking to myself "Man they even made it spotless inside where hardly anybody ever looks, read between those lines....true pride in craftsmanship" (That was my first of 3 Guilds, all bought new)

One of our members who'd worked in Westerly at the time, Hideglue, made a statement that "QC reached its zenith under Fender". It caused a bit of argument when it was interpreted as meaning that those years produced "the best" guitars (although some of us did and still do do believe that, think @West R Lee still does).

Paul (Hideglue) had to take pains to explain that it was the checklist system that created high consistency and fewer "rejects" (which is what QC is all about), not that the guitars were necessarily "built better". They just formalized Guild's existing standards to ensure they got consistently applied.

Seeing the work that was done to that 12, I suspect something outside of normal wear and use may have caused that fretboard to come loose, but obviously somebody realized the instrument was worth fixing. Dealing with a fellow member also usually has pretty good results around here.

I used to think I'd prefer a "pristine" guitar but I've become more flexible. I get your desire to simply be sure you're getting good value for your hard earned money, and in the end only you can make that decision. I see this one as a "ready to play", no surprises since it's been gone over pretty thoroughly already. And yeah, lots of folks like their saddles a bit low, that's one reason the neck alignment chck uses the top of the bridge. A low saddle and/or low action in and of themslves don't mean neck angle is bad. Only the alignment check will show if your geometry is good (and assuming saddle hasn't been shaved, although there are situations in which I'd even accept that as the most reasonable solution these days.

FWIW I didn't think that saddle has been shaved, looks pretty "fat" to me. And I judged the alignment of the straightedge in the pic by the fact you couldn't see any of it peeking out from under that obscuring string. It also looks nearly perfectly aligned with one of 'em on the top edge, so even allowing for slight angle-of-view distortion, that would indicate to me the ruler's hitting right at the top of the bridge or a few thousandths low maybe. I still think it's fine.

Good luck! ;)
This member (seller) seems like a real stand up guy. I agree with your assessment of the guitar and that is why I got it. The seller made it a point to tell me how much it cost pre repair and how he meant it to sell to someone that’s looking for a high end pickup. I’m not necessarily looking to amplify but it seems like a solid nicely set up guitar. It’s a model that I want to get more history on. I would like to find the specs on it as well. Can only find the specs for the JF-55. Thanks for the feedback it was much appreciated.
 

adorshki

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This member (seller) seems like a real stand up guy. I agree with your assessment of the guitar and that is why I got it. The seller made it a point to tell me how much it cost pre repair and how he meant it to sell to someone that’s looking for a high end pickup. I’m not necessarily looking to amplify but it seems like a solid nicely set up guitar. It’s a model that I want to get more history on. I would like to find the specs on it as well. Can only find the specs for the JF-55. Thanks for the feedback it was much appreciated.
You're welcome! I guess I missed that you got the guitar, must be in another thread (I'll see it if it is). Congrats!

And yes there isn't a whole lot out there on the JF55-12, even the catalogs favor its maple JF65-12 counterpart for pics.

But it does show up on a spec chart from a '98 Guild catalog:


Guild-1998-Gallery-pg34_1600.jpeg

Note one critical difference is the bracing, 12-ers got special "12-string" bracing to help deal with the extra top tension. Also those dual truss rods are to deal with the difference in torque from the treble to bass side of the fretboard and aren't necessarily meant to be equally adjusted, which is best left to somebody who really understands 'em, or at least grasps the concept.

'Hog is an exceedingly stable wood and I think that's why they introduced it on the 12-er necks right about that time.

The rosewood's better than 99% probability of being EIR but Guild always had excellent wood thanks to a guy named Willie:
Guild-1999-Jul-Gallery-Catalog-pg48_1600.jpeg


Forum host GAD has extensive catalogs and price lists here: https://www.gad.net/Blog/guild-guitar-price-lists/

Hope it works out real nice for ya! And btw I think I've only ever plugged in my F65ce like 3 or 4 times in 20 years, myself....:D

PS just realized I said "saddle" a couple of times above when I meant "bridge", but I think you got it anyway.
 
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