12-String Action Height

GAD

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So with the imaginary issues behind me, I find myself with a beautiful, serviceable guitar that I likely won't play much because the action is a bit high.

Am I right in thinking that I should be able to lower the action a bit to make it play like a 6-string, or is there some 12-string limitation that I'm not aware of? I guess I'm asking, "Is a higher action part of owning a 12-string, or can I make this lower?"

Thanks,

GAD
 

Don

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Whew! That's pretty open ended. How much saddle is left? What gauge strings are you currently using? Concert tune or have you pitched it down? What's it measure at the 12th? Answers range from "Suck it up, it's a 12" to "There's a hundred things you can do." Lowering the action should make it play better but it's still a 12 and will always play a bit harder just because of all the extra strings. That's why a lot of folks step the pitch down. Oh, forgot to mention tweaking the truss rod. God, maybe you should just ship it to me and let me get it really playing for you. 8) 8) 8)
 

charliea

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My 65-12 is set at 3/32 and plays just fine with lights. Don't get me wrong. My left arm is starting to look a lot like Popeye's, but that comes with the turf.
 

Christopher Cozad

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Unless you pluck or strum harder on your 12 string, the action can be as low as your 6 string. There is no intrinsic distinction that would necessitate setting an action higher on a 12 string. Whichever hand you use to hold the strings down with will get a bit stronger, but the hand you use to pick or strum with will do the same work it has always done.

[Anecdotal note: When I was but a wee lad I had a no-brand 12 string with an action so high it caused significant pain and suffering, but I played it anyway, too young to understand the mysteries of things like "action", "neck relief", "bridge height", and "nuts and saddles". My dad introduced me to a lady who owned, among other guitars, a Guild F-412. I was awestruck by that guitar. I could hardly believe that she would let me touch it, let alone play it, but she did. I remember picking it up with reverence, startled by how heavy it was but immediately comfortable with how the neck felt in my hands. The action was so low compared to my 12 string impostor of a guitar, yet buzz-free. I was hooked for life. Moral of the story - Beware! Guild 12 strings with low actions can ruin you! :) ]

Christopher
 

Don

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Amen! I say again Brother...AMEN!!!
 

GAD

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I'm perfectly OK with the additional strength needed to play a 12-er, that's not my issue. It's pure action hight. The neck is straight as a rail. I'd actually prefer a little more relief in the neck, but doing that now would make it unplayable. In my non-expert opinion, lowering the saddle one metric smidge would make it play perfectly. I would generally attack that problem by buying a new bone saddle and sanding it down to the height I like. That way if I muck it up I could just put the original back in. That's what I did on my Taylor and it worked out well, though I didn't want more action - I just wanted a bone nut. :)

Here's a pic of the saddle. It's hard to see because of the depth of field, but there is little room on the treble side, but lots of room on the base side, I believe that a new saddle, sanded a three metric smidges lower on the base side and a 1/2 metric smidge on the treble side would be perfect.

Am I nuts, or is that a good plan? Anyone have a good source for saddles?

_B0Z3038_800.jpg
 

Christopher Cozad

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GAD said:
Am I nuts, or is that a good plan? Anyone have a good source for saddles?

Adjusted by a "metric smidge". That sounds like it should work marvelously. :)

Keeping your old one and replacing it with your "trial" saddle is a great plan. Have a go at it. The investment is nominal and the yield is high!

If you like Tusq, Graph Tech is a good source.

StewMac and Luthier Supply can both provide bone blanks, as can several others. If you want a custom made bone saddle, Bob Colosi will copy your existing one for you at guitarsaddles.com.

Christopher
 

GAD

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Cool - thanks all.

I forgot to add that I've got light strings on there and I have it tuned down a full step.
 

Scratch

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The other day I noticed a slight buzz on the G312's 'A' strings and decided to adjust the truss rods to provide some relief. This is something I normally do in the spring as the guitars each respond to higher humidity in each their own way... I loosened the strings, cranked each rod back about 1/4 turn to achieve 4/32 vs. my typical 3/32; then checked the string and to my satisfaction, the buzz was gone. I tuned back to 'D' as usual; and flat picked some chords. I sat dumbfaced at the huge change in projection. From the other room, my wife asked if I could turn down the volume. I wasn't plugged in... :mrgreen:

I know, of course, that higher action increases volume, but I had no idea the difference 1/32 could have.
 

Brad Little

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Saddle looks like it could be tweaked enough to lower the action. As others have said, the action on a 12 should be comparable to a six, just harder to fret because of the double strings.
Brad, who now has played his F-212 for 46 years :wink:
 

Zelja

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Scratch said:
The other day I noticed a slight buzz on the G312's 'A' strings and decided to adjust the truss rods to provide some relief. This is something I normally do in the spring as the guitars each respond to higher humidity in each their own way... I loosened the strings, cranked each rod back about 1/4 turn to achieve 4/32 vs. my typical 3/32; then checked the string and to my satisfaction, the buzz was gone. I tuned back to 'D' as usual; and flat picked some chords. I sat dumbfaced at the huge change in projection. From the other room, my wife asked if I could turn down the volume. I wasn't plugged in... :mrgreen:

I know, of course, that higher action increases volume, but I had no idea the difference 1/32 could have.

Hey Scratch, wondering what is going on here because the saddle itself & hence the break angle wasn't changed, was it? As far as I understand that's what affects tone/volume/projection, unless of course the action was so low that buzzing on the frets reduced the string vibration quite considerably.

Also can you convert thsi 4/32" stuff into metric smidges, because Australia does have the metric system & I get confused with these feet, furlongs, miles & cubits you guys use. :)
 

capnjuan

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GAD said:
... I believe that a new saddle, sanded a three metric smidges lower on the base side and a 1/2 metric smidge on the treble side would be perfect.
Man I love a guy who talks technical ... raises us all up :D

Charliea's G312 had nice, low action ... all 12ers take a little more force but, as much as anything, overcoming the string height / action is a matter of it taking a smidge ( :wink: ) more time to get the strings down ... it's not just a matter of hand pressure. Your plan is approved!
 

GAD

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capnjuan said:
GAD said:
... I believe that a new saddle, sanded a three metric smidges lower on the base side and a 1/2 metric smidge on the treble side would be perfect.
Man I love a guy who talks technical ... raises us all up :D

Charliea's G312 had nice, low action ... all 12ers take a little more force but, as much as anything, overcoming the string height / action is a matter of it taking a smidge ( :wink: ) more time to get the strings down ... it's not just a matter of hand pressure. Your plan is approved!

Huzzah!
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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I get bone saddle blanks form my local luthier.
If you are good with your hands, this is a cheap way to do it.
Use the old saddle as a guide and have at it.

As far as how low the action can be, a 12 string that is tuned down 1 step and has light strings will be likely to buzz if the action is set the same as a 6 string at concert pitch. [440]
The .008 and .011 strings will usually be the problem because they move so much and hit the frest.

In order to get the action on a 12 as low as you can and still achieve the good tone, you will need a complete set up. This will include making sure that all frets are the same height, the neck angle is correct, the neck relief is correct, the nut and saddle are at proper heigth, the guitar is at proper humidity level, and your playing style.

To get all of this right, I'd take the guitar to a Tech and have it set up.
The results are worth the time and money.
 

GAD

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Great. Where am I supposed to find two dimes? At this hour?
 
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