Guild Finish at Cordoba

[West R Lee]

Some of you may not remember, but one reasons for Guild leaving Corona was the California regulations regarding the use of nitrocellulose lacquer. I've just gone to the Cordoba website and noticed that steel string Cordoba guitars are finished in polyurethane. You know what I'm wondering. Will Cordoba finish Guild guitars in nitrocellulose lacquer, or will they use poly? I guess we'll see.

West

 

[guildman63]

Very interesting question! Another question to ponder is will the value of the NH models that were finished with nitro go up as a result? I hate to think what an American Patriarch, or any of the high end acoustics will be like with poly finishes. Maybe it is nothing to worry about, but perhaps someone that really understands how the finish affects the short term and long term tone of a guitar can chime in.

 

[chazmo]

Really good question!!!!!

In Tacoma, the original Tacoma guitars were finished in poly, but they introduced lacquer when Guild was brought in. They had some issues getting that right, as I recall, since they didn't have a lot of experience with lacquer.

In NH, at the first LMG, Frank Untermyer rolled up on his bicycle on Saturday as we were having a small cookout with Graham, Carl, and a few others of us who stuck around, and Frank asked us straight up if we thought that lacquer was a required part of the Traditional series guitars. I think we had some mixed answers to that question. Here we are telling the GM how to build our guitars??

Ultimately, the Traditional series was not mucked with at all and always took a long time to get through the finish process. I think this has always been a sore point for folks who want to introduce more efficiency in the process. Then, a couple of years in, the Standard series was a bit of an experiment to speed things up... Stil a lacquer finish, but some synthetic filler was used in the process which reduced curing time. Also, add to this that Standard series necks and bodies were finished separately, and I think they cut the time down rather significantly (compared with the Tradiitonal series). Those Traditionals always took a long time to get through finish.

Cordova may have to change the finishing process for Guilds, but Ren is a pretty old-school guy. I wonder what'll happen. If they go poly, I guarantee you Ren Ferguson will make sure it's the thinnest, least impacting finish you ever saw!

 

[West R Lee]

Another interesting thing I noticed is that the bridges on the D model Cordoba steel string guitars looks remarkably like Taylor bridges. Just an observation.

West

 

[guildman63]

I would not worry about that as long as Ren is around.

 

[chazmo]

Well, that's right out!

The day they flip the TRCs over is the day the music dies.

 

[West R Lee]

We'll see. To my knowledge, Ren Ferguson has never finished a guitar in poly.......it'll be interesting.

West

 

[idealassets]

I'm eagerly anticipating seeing some sales information coming around from Cordoba with all the good spec's spelled out.

Craig

 

[SFIV1967]

I'm eagerly anticipating seeing some sales information coming around from Cordoba with all the good spec's spelled out.

I guess first we need to see an official press release in the future that CMG actually bought Guild...So fare they only stated their intent to acquire Guild...Afterwards it will probably take many month until any info about models will come.

If they go poly, I guarantee you Ren Ferguson will make sure it's the thinnest, least impacting finish you ever saw!

Fender in Corona is also using nitro. But talking about the subject, Taylor just introduced the thinnest poly finish ever on the new 800 series:

To compare with, Taylor stated that a typical nitrocellulose lacquer finish has a thickness of 6 to 8 mils when new. (I don't know what a Guild finish thickness was).

"For some time now, Taylor’s standard gloss finish has had a maximum thickness of 6 mils (1 mil = .001 inch), which is the industry standard for a high-quality gloss-finish guitar. But because of the tonal benefits of thinner finishes, Andy Powers wanted to reduce the finish on the 800 Series guitars by half if possible. Guided by the manufacturing expertise of Bob Taylor and Taylor’s finish experts, the finish thickness was reduced more than 40 percent to an average of 3.5 mils, while still preserving a beautiful glossy luster. “We did it by calling upon all the resources that we’ve ever had in all our years of guitar building,” says Bob Taylor."

See pages 16 and 17 (or page 9 of 32 depending on your Acrobat reader settings) here for some more interesting info: http://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/default/files/Wood-Steel_Winter-2014_EN.pdf

Ralf

 

[twocorgis]

Some of you may not remember, but one reasons for Guild leaving Corona was the California regulations regarding the use of nitrocellulose lacquer. I've just gone to the Cordoba website and noticed that steel string Cordoba guitars are finished in polyurethane. You know what I'm wondering. Will Cordoba finish Guild guitars in nitrocellulose lacquer, or will they use poly? I guess we'll see.

West

Jim,

As far as I know, at least all the acoustic guitars at Corona were nitro finishes, and the article linked here would seem to bear that out. I know that the one on the JF30-12 (now living with Texas Dave) that a used to own was as nice a finish as I've seen on any guitar. I know that there's some special machinery you can install to get a nitro waiver from the California Air Resources Board (which is what Guild did at Corona), and I'm guessing (hoping?) that Cordoba implements something like that. It's also possible that the machinery that CMG is buying from the NH plant already qualifies that waiver, as most of the Northeastern states have adopted similar air quality standards to California. It might end up being a relatively smooth transition, and I hope it is. The Cordoba folks certainly seem to have their heart in the right place, something that couldn't always be said for FMIC.

 

[Jeff_L]

But talking about the subject, Taylor just introduced the thinnest poly finish ever on the new 800 series:


Ralf

But the purpose of a finish on a wood surface is to protect the wood. A thinner finish will be damaged easier by bumps and pick scratches. How will this affect the durability of the guitar?

Jeff

 

[killdeer43]

A little reading to catch up, perhaps?

http://www.rowycokustoms.com/RK_nitropoly.html

Since it's on the table, :apple:
Joe

 

[guildman63]

But the purpose of a finish on a wood surface is to protect the wood. A thinner finish will be damaged easier by bumps and pick scratches. How will this affect the durability of the guitar?


Jeff

I guess the only way to know that is to know how a nitro finish compares with a poly finish in terms of protection. Does a 6-8mm nitro finish provide the same protection as a 6-8mm poly finish? If not what thickness of each would provide the same protection? Once that is known one can determine how protective a 3.5mm poly fish will be relative to the typical nitro finish.

 

[guildman63]

A little reading to catch up, perhaps?

http://www.rowycokustoms.com/RK_nitropoly.html

Since it's on the table, :apple:
Joe

Very interesting! One could probably argue that there are other common beliefs with guitars that came to be because of manufacturing techniques or materials back in the day, but that are not necessarily true. I won't mention any since I don't know jack about guitars, but those misconceptions know who they are. :wink:

 

[SFIV1967]

Does a 6-8mm nitro finish provide the same protection as a 6-8mm poly finish?

Not millimeter but mils...(see the Taylor article page 17 above). I'd say the answer is definitely no, as a poly finish is not giving you cracks due to cold/warm transition, does not shrink, does not melt when on the wrong guitar hanger or guitar stand,... Look at a 60's Starfire and how the lacquer dried out and flaked away? Would not happen to poly.
So poly is much better giving protection to the wood. A bump in the wood will happen independent if a 6mil or 3.5mil finish is used.
But there seems to be a difference in sound if the finish is 6mils or 3.5mils. I bet the Newark St. finish is more like >10mils.
Ralf

 

[Westerly Wood]

All I know is, if Cordoba Guilds go poly, I will never buy one.

 

[killdeer43]

All I know is, if Cordoba Guilds go poly, I will never buy one.

That's quite the broad stroke there, WW. Never say never.... :apple:

Joe

 

[Westerly Wood]

That's quite the broad stroke there, WW. Never say never.... :apple:

Joe

I am confident in my follow thru

 

[West R Lee]

Sandy, I remember the discussion here, probably not long after I joined LTG in '05, in which it was discussed that Corona wouldn't/couldn't spray nitro. Now that conversation was here on the forum, but never substantiated, so I can't say for sure if they did, or if they didn't. Just too long ago. I just remember reading that here.

As far as if it matters, well there are those who think it does, and those who don't much care. The conventional wisdom always was that nitro allowed the wood to "breathe", but I know that for one, cjdplayer always scoffed at that. Being a Taylor guy (and they use poly), Carl's opinion always was that if a guitar needed to breathe, it could breathe from the unfinished bottom of the top/back/sides. Personally, I do think poly inhibits expansion and contraction of the woods.

West

 

[Westerly Wood]

Personally, I do think poly inhibits expansion and contraction of the woods.

West

And it looks too darn shiny. I mean how can anyone hope to create tone flames in the top if it is all pollied up?