High prices of the new Guilds; maybe should shop around.

[yettoblaster]

... I own a Guild from every plant except Corona, and I think they're all good.

I'll vouch for Corona. I don't own from every source at this point but I HAVE owned Hoboken, Westerly, and now a Tacoma. And my Savoy jazz box is Corona, and I've had the same box from Westerly: the only difference I can tell is the bridge isn't compensated and the finish is poly vs lacquer (which on a plywood archtop doesn't bunch my undies all that much). And I LOVE my Tacoma-built D40!

 

[West R Lee]

Somehow, I think this is been made into a Westerly vs all the other facilities thread, it isn't intended to touch on the merits of the guitars from the different facilities (not my intention anyway), or qualities of the various guitars to come from those facilities. Examples of various guitars have been cited in an attempt to establish value, or perceived value, but not once have I read where an individual has said "Guitar X was built here, so it is better than guitar Y".

Let's go back to the question that started the thread....."High prices of the new Guilds: maybe I should shop around." To me the entire thread has been about the justification of the prices being asked by Fender/Guild for their guitars, not a guitar by guitar comparison of the guitars to come from the different manufacturing sites.

Zilla has given the best evidence for price comparison that I've seen so far, but to me, there's more to the issue than the price 10 years ago vs the price today, but there is the basis for that price and the economic conditions in which those prices are being asked. The history of Guild also comes into play as it goes a long way in my opinion to establish the reputation and the visiblity of the brand, compared to the prices being asked for other name brand guitars.....JUST AN OPINION FRONO!

All of these issues come into play in my view in establishing a basis for the answer asked in the beginning of the thread. Are the new Guild guitars worth what's being asked? My standard answer has always been..........an item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.....period.........nobody can argue that point. We'll see.

A bit off the subject, but now my curiosity is stimulated, but does anyone know if there has been turmoil inside Martin, Taylor or Gibson over the years? Taylor and Martin have always seemed pretty stable. We'll save it for another thread, but it seems like Gibson has gone through some moves through the years. It also seems like some of the Gibsons built at one of the Gibson facilities is considered inferior by Gibson purists? (DON'T DRAW AN IMPLICATION THAT I'M SAYING THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH A GUILD BUILT AT ONE OF THE FACILITIES....TAKE THE QUESTION AT FACE VALUE). I would just find it interesting that one of the big boys had gone through similar growing pains.

West

 

[fronobulax]

JUST AN OPINION FRONO!

I'm hurt. Deeply hurt.



:wink:


It has been difficult to keep the OP in sight. The problem with any discussion that starts out with a judgment that a price is high is that everything immediately becomes relative. And once that barn door is open everything gets compared.

 

[fungusyoung]

does anyone know if there has been turmoil inside Martin, Taylor or Gibson over the years? Taylor and Martin have always seemed pretty stable. We'll save it for another thread, but it seems like Gibson has gone through some moves through the years. It also seems like some of the Gibsons built at one of the Gibson facilities is considered inferior by Gibson purists? (DON'T DRAW AN IMPLICATION THAT I'M SAYING THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH A GUILD BUILT AT ONE OF THE FACILITIES....TAKE THE QUESTION AT FACE VALUE). I would just find it interesting that one of the big boys had gone through similar growing pains.

Absolutely, West.

This discussion is no different from what happens frequently as production facilities are moved, product lines are overhauled &/or revamped and whenever companies attempt to re-position themselves in the marketplace.

I'm not being an alarmist here, nor do I think you are. It's just a dose of realism & an open discussion about the concerns we have or the overwhelming positives others are feeling.

Martin has definitely been stable as far as I know except for a period during the 70's in which some claim their products went a bit inferior (unless you consider the X series production move to Mexico which CFM purists tend to disregard very similar to how Guild purists view GAD's), but the companies that have moved production like Gibson, Larrivee, etc. have consistently stirred up this same type of concern & discussion amongst their staunchest supporters. The same exact thing has happened with Guild several times already (which is surely part of the problem), particularly over their moves from Hoboken, Westerly & then Tacoma.

This thread is far from a discussion just about price or re-sale value, but the OP's point was a good one that's spirited 10 pages of thoughts, opinions, cautions, etc. without veering nearly as much as we often do for no apparent reason.

 

[West R Lee]

JUST AN OPINION FRONO!

I'm hurt. Deeply hurt.



:wink:


It has been difficult to keep the OP in sight. The problem with any discussion that starts out with a judgment that a price is high is that everything immediately becomes relative. And once that barn door is open everything gets compared.

You're right. It's impossible to try and have an objective comprehensive discussion on the topic and not come off as either a Westerly fan or a fan or owner of a guitar built anywhere other than Westerly that is somehow being trampled on by a Westerly fan. I did however read one post in which it was implied that Westerlys were inferior guitars. Still a great discussion.

Thank you Fungus. But didn't Gibson go through this fairly recently. Like moved from Bozeman, Montana to someplace else....like Kalamazoo or something, then move back........or am I mistaken? And the non Montana guitars are considered inferior by some? I apologize for the veer.

West

 

[cjd-player]

... but now my curiosity is stimulated, but does anyone know if there has been turmoil inside Martin, Taylor or Gibson over the years?
West

I can't speak for the others, and in reality I can't truly speak for Taylor; but that's the company I know best from their literature and on-line forum. I think that Taylor is best separated from most other guitar manufacturers by something that Bob Taylor once said. He said that most other guitar companies recreate their past, over and over. Whereas Taylor embraces change and improvement and tries to make the next generation of guitars better. Taylor has had some negative customer reactions to some of their changes, but I think that most of their customers embrace the changes for the improvements that they are. They've altered body shapes, made new body shapes, changed bracing and top geometries, neck profiles, and electronics. To the point that if you buy a used Taylor, you have to be sure of the year that it was made and do some research to know all of the specifications and internal features. All of the changes were because Bob Taylor passionately believed that these changes made better guitars.
They've certainly had some turmoil, such as when they changed to their own pick-up electronics, and have had some upper management people leave the company, but I don't believe any of that resulted in inferior product being delivered to the market.

To answer an earlier question that you posted, Jim, Taylor does not sell "seconds". Their manufacturing process is such that if a problem is discovered, the guitar goes back through the appropriate department for repair to proper specs before it is sold.

 

[fungusyoung]

To answer an earlier question that you posted, Jim, Taylor does not sell "seconds". Their manufacturing process is such that if a problem is discovered, the guitar goes back through the appropriate department for repair to proper specs before it is sold.

I believe Martin has the same policy. I know they have seconds in the facility that employees can play at will on breaks, etc., but from what I recall they vigilantly police seconds from leaving the building at all.

Interesting stuff about Taylor, cjd. They are the company I know the least about. Though their guitars tend not float my boat as much as Guilds & Martins, I've played many over the few years that were truly fine instruments & I've always viewed them as a pretty innovative company.

 

[capnjuan]

... So it might happen with Guild - make a new line of mid-price products that are perfectly nice yet have them go unsold as not the real deal Guilds.

Hi JG; that already happened .... FMIC would say 'been there, done that' ... the Tacoma-only made Contemporary CO and CV models that have been discussed at length in this LTG thread. As far as the market is concerned, when Guild closed Tacoma, it elected to flood its own bargain basement by selling its left-over Contemporary models on the gray market where they sit waiting for buyers: COs on eBay (13 total, 2 with warranties) and CVs on eBay (13 total, 3 with warranties)

I think the GSRs are intended to provide some diversity in a product line long dominated by mahogany, maple, and rosewood; maybe something cosmetically more interesting a la Taylor as opposed to the stuffier Traditional models.

 

[Brad Little]

Slight veer here, maybe. There was a thread I can't locate at the moment, that said one of the reasons Guild were hard to find was the numbers being produced compared to the number of dealers. According to this site, http://www.westerlyguildguitars.com/articles/tour.htm ,Westerly was producing 60 guitars a day. By my calculations that's around 15000 a year, and that includes all different models under production, electrics and archtops as well as flattops. I think that New Hartford can pretty much attain those numbers, and only with acoustics at the moment. I wonder what the production numbers were during the Corona and Tacoma years and if the lack of product in stores might be due to under production in those years and the need to get caught up. Just my two cents.
Brad

 

[cjd-player]

... Westerly was producing 60 guitars a day. ... I think that New Hartford can pretty much attain those numbers, and only with acoustics at the moment.
Brad

When we were on the tour with Frank, his comments led us to believe that they were making about 6 guitars a day, and that moving to 10 per day would be a big stretch. Three shifts per day could in theory raise that to 30, but they would still have delays and constraints in the finishing department. So even 30 is unrealistic. 60 per day would require a large expansion for them.

 

[Brad Little]

So even 30 is unrealistic. 60 per day would require a large expansion for them.

Well, I guess I misremembered, or maybe misoverestimated!
Brad

 

[twocorgis]

[quote="cjd-player":b5ti5g04] So even 30 is unrealistic. 60 per day would require a large expansion for them.

Well, I guess I misremembered, or maybe misoverestimated!
Brad[/quote:b5ti5g04]

Hey, at least you were consistent in your inconsistency, Brad. :lol:

You're also the only one who left New Hatford with a free guitar. 8)

 

[chazmo]

[quote="cjd-player":3s6eavd7] So even 30 is unrealistic. 60 per day would require a large expansion for them.

Well, I guess I misremembered, or maybe misoverestimated!
Brad

Hey, at least you were consistent in your inconsistency, Brad. :lol:

You're also the only one who left New Hatford with a free guitar. 8)[/quote:3s6eavd7]
Sometimes it pays to see the world with rose-colored glasses. Or, perhaps in this case, rosewood??

 

[jmac]

If the price of Guilds is going up, isn't that a good thing? After buying a house you want property values to increase not decrease.

 

[fronobulax]

There was a thread I can't locate at the moment, that said one of the reasons Guild were hard to find was the numbers being produced compared to the number of dealers.

My pontifications and SWAGs were here, in that thread.

My points, assuming my SWAGs were reasonable were that:

Current production averages about 4 guitars per dealer per year. Clearly production needs to ramp up, dealers need to be pared or both.

Doubling production is a short term goal of Guild management.

Even doubled, NH will still be producing less than half the guitars that Westerly did for a typical year (for a couple years where it was easy to estimate total production).

 

[fronobulax]

If the price of Guilds is going up, isn't that a good thing? After buying a house you want property values to increase not decrease.

Depends whether you are buying or selling or hoping to sell :wink:

 

[adorshki]

The folks I know and have known who make their living teaching and playing often have more than one instrument but they almost never are buying and selling in hopes of finding a better instrument or a better value.

I frequently find myself in a tiny demographic these days: I just wanted to have a few very nice guitars to choose from at whim and though I purchased every one new, intending to keep it, I did want to hope that resale value would be good, even if only as a matter of owner's pride.

So is using resale value as a purchase criteria something guitarists do more often than other instrumentalists or is it something amateurs (dedicated and otherwise) do more often than professionals or what?

I see it as more of a "find something that can be bought/sold for money", at least for the majority of e-bay/craigslist ads... where it seems there are more opportunists listing than actual players.

....seems to me to be lacking a fundamental element of commitment.

Has a lot to do with why I prefer to buy new. Most importantly I will know everything about the history of the instrument. But it also relates to the fact that I TRUST THE BRAND and probably WOULD be willing to ORDER a guitar even if I hadn't played THAT SPECIFIC ONE, due to that trust. Is THAT commitment? I think so.

What Fender is doing with Guild seems to be the textbook strategies for turning a faltering brand around and using the luxury/premium image and market to do so.
:wink:

I think you're absolutely right and I hope it works! It's probably the only way since increasing production volume isn't a short-term possibility in any case.

 

[Brad Little]

Even doubled, NH will still be producing less than half the guitars that Westerly did for a typical year (for a couple years where it was easy to estimate total production).

Okay, but aren't they also only producing about half the models or less? No electrics, no basses, etc. I'd be interested in how many were being produced in Corona and Tacoma.
Brad

 

[Brad Little]

You're also the only one who left New Hatford with a free guitar. 8)

Yes, I remarked to Pez as I was leaving that I was going home with two guitars, either one of which was worth more than the van I was driving :lol: (the other was my Artist Award). Believe me, I appreciate it every time I open the case.
Brad

 

[twocorgis]

You're also the only one who left New Hatford with a free guitar. 8)

Yes, I remarked to Pez as I was leaving that I was going home with two guitars, either one of which was worth more than the van I was driving :lol: (the other was my Artist Award). Believe me, I appreciate it every time I open the case.
Brad

See, and you went and blew your GAS budget by buying a new car. :shock:

One of us coulda/woulda/shoulda had that Mark VII.