bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
I'd be happy to go check it out for you.twocorgis said:
Come to think of it, I am probably going to check it out, if it's only to satisfy my own curiosity! :shock: And feed this thread with my full report....
High prices of the new Guilds; maybe should shop around.
- Thread starter Dennis M
- Start date
Come to think of it, I am probably going to check it out, if it's only to satisfy my own curiosity! :shock: And feed this thread with my full report....
West R Lee
Venerated Member
bluesypicky said:
Atta boy!
West
bluesypicky said:
Thanks, Pascal. Looks like it's right there in your 'hood. 8)
We're just here to help, Jim. :lol:
West R Lee
Venerated Member
twocorgis said:
Hey, y'all buy 'em up! I'm pretty happy with what I've got.
West
West R Lee
Venerated Member
Ridgemont said:Well those koa jumbos sure are something to look at. I did play the GSR F40 and that was a real treat. The guitar was too nice for my ability.
Ah, playing ability's got nothing to do with it Ridge.......look what I've got :shock: :lol: .
West
Bikerdoc
Senior Member
Yeah, look what West has. Uhhhhhhh, talent? Well yaaaaaahhhhh.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=7292945
Peace
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=7292945
Peace
West R Lee
Venerated Member
Bikerdoc said:
Yep, see there Doc, missed a fret towards the end of that one!West
Bikerdoc
Senior Member
West R Lee said:Bikerdoc said:
West
On NOOOOOOOOO!!! I don't think any of us have "ever" missed a fret. Just what were you thinking? LOL :wink:
Peace
West R Lee
Venerated Member
Bikerdoc said:West R Lee said:Bikerdoc said:
West
On NOOOOOOOOO!!! I don't think any of us have "ever" missed a fret. Just what were you thinking? LOL :wink:
Peace
Yea, but I miss a lot of frets, I just don't post those songs. :lol:
West
fungusyoung
Senior Member
Guild used to make excellent guitars at amazing prices. I'm not in the market for a $2K/+ acoustic guitar, and I seriously doubt I ever will be. The Westerly era builds still afford a ridiculous number of quality options for $1000 or less.
I really hope folks enjoy the new F30-R, but the '98 I owned & stupidly sold was as much guitar (for $850 or so) as I'd ever want or need. I cannot lie... knowing what they want for the new ones kinda makes me sick.
The bottom line is that "new USA" Guild lines cater to a much different demographic than whatever one I fit into. They've subcontracted the manufacturing of my demographic out to Mexico & China.
Even if I won lotto it wouldn't buy a new USA Guild because I can be more than satisfied spending less than half of what they are going for.
West makes a GREAT point, too by posting the D28 & D50. You can no longer say Guild is the poor man's Martin. Those days are long gone.
Personally, I also think it's a very high risk approach by Guild to go after the upper end market like this, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is yet another short-lived approach. I doubt we'll ever see the stability of the Westerly era again.
I really hope folks enjoy the new F30-R, but the '98 I owned & stupidly sold was as much guitar (for $850 or so) as I'd ever want or need. I cannot lie... knowing what they want for the new ones kinda makes me sick.
The bottom line is that "new USA" Guild lines cater to a much different demographic than whatever one I fit into. They've subcontracted the manufacturing of my demographic out to Mexico & China.
Even if I won lotto it wouldn't buy a new USA Guild because I can be more than satisfied spending less than half of what they are going for.
West makes a GREAT point, too by posting the D28 & D50. You can no longer say Guild is the poor man's Martin. Those days are long gone.
Personally, I also think it's a very high risk approach by Guild to go after the upper end market like this, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is yet another short-lived approach. I doubt we'll ever see the stability of the Westerly era again.
taabru45
Enlightened Member
Every thing was a lot more stable in the Westerly era...jobs, relationships...predictability. I'm a pretty good guitar player, and no doubt would enjoy playing a 4 grand guitar, but, these days everything being so precarious, I'd be afraid to take it out of its case, Yet the old westerlies I have and paid a goodly amount of dollars for, are just there, and I am careful with them....but now, I kind of think of them as both a joy, and a possible cash flow....even the newish D50 had to be considered as a what if situation, and I think I'd not have much trouble getting my money out if necessary, and part of me wants to not be too guitar rich, so I think I'll maybe sell the Jumbo F50 cause its not as easy to play......and then I play it and just don't care...the sound is amazing....so.......its so confusing. but, without worrying too much, I take out the D50 and play it...the case is just like new, so I kind of want to keep it that way, and use my Tric case, and its lighter....any of this make sense....? :? Steffan
jgwoods
Member
"...Well I did check with my local LTG dealer....Bing :wink: . Bing seemed to think that around $3300/$3400 was about right. Seems like Bing said they retail for something like $4300/$4400 :shock: . At $2600 or $2700, I'd consider unloading a few and scoring a GSR50, but they're out of my league.
http://www.williesguitars.com/index.cfm ... /6/image/2
West[/quote]
My "theory" is that dealers pay Half. They pay $2200 for a $4400 guitar, and that may be what your guy paid for the GSR F50. If you off $2250 he makes $50 and parts with a guitar that is making him nervous because he has had it too long and no one is buying right now. It won't make him rich but it puts money back in his bank account and he didn't lose anything.
He can always counter offer and you can settle on a price. If you offer $2600-$2700 he might jump at it and you get a very nice guitar for a nice price...but you might have done even better. When I offered $2350 for the GSR F40 I thought the retail price was $4600 and that I was offering basically cost +$50 to buy it. They took it, and now I see where I should have offered $100 less because I had the wrong retail price in mind. At any rate- there are deals out there.
One of Guilds biggest problems is the low price of fine used Guilds. When you can get a real nice one for around $1000 it makes it hard to sell a very reasonably priced new one for $2k + . As an observation this forum seems to be filled with owners who bought used and few who bought new, so sticker shock at the new prices is rampant. I see very little commentary of the same type regarding Gibsons or Martins as the buyers for those seem more willing to accept the current pricing.
http://www.williesguitars.com/index.cfm ... /6/image/2
West[/quote]
My "theory" is that dealers pay Half. They pay $2200 for a $4400 guitar, and that may be what your guy paid for the GSR F50. If you off $2250 he makes $50 and parts with a guitar that is making him nervous because he has had it too long and no one is buying right now. It won't make him rich but it puts money back in his bank account and he didn't lose anything.
He can always counter offer and you can settle on a price. If you offer $2600-$2700 he might jump at it and you get a very nice guitar for a nice price...but you might have done even better. When I offered $2350 for the GSR F40 I thought the retail price was $4600 and that I was offering basically cost +$50 to buy it. They took it, and now I see where I should have offered $100 less because I had the wrong retail price in mind. At any rate- there are deals out there.
One of Guilds biggest problems is the low price of fine used Guilds. When you can get a real nice one for around $1000 it makes it hard to sell a very reasonably priced new one for $2k + . As an observation this forum seems to be filled with owners who bought used and few who bought new, so sticker shock at the new prices is rampant. I see very little commentary of the same type regarding Gibsons or Martins as the buyers for those seem more willing to accept the current pricing.
West R Lee said:
Have you considered the F40 in cocobolo, an alternative rosewood? There are currently two on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Guild-GSR-F40-S ... ?pt=Guitar
http://cgi.ebay.com/GUILD-GSR-F40-COCOB ... ?pt=Guitar
The second one is obviously cheaper, but the first seller is accepting offers. And that headstock makes my knees weak.
Hi JG: in '07 and '08, the ratio of posted purchases of new Tacomas to used Guilds - regardless of source - was about 1:10. '09 was the year of Guild dumping unsold/blemed Tacoma inventory; mostly Contemporary and a few Traditional models ... on the gray market. There was no substantive Guild new output to buy.jgwoods said:
I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish whether buying a used Guild is driven by its attractive cost-to-value relationship or sticker shock ... maybe both:jgwoods said:
"I bought a used Guild because I got a lot of value for my money and, besides, the prices for new ones are high (relative to used)." or,
"I bought a used Guild because the prices for new ones are high (relative to used) and, besides, I got a lot of value for my money."
Cost-to-value: I don't follow the sales of new v. late model Guilds to pick up on the rate of depreciation. For contrast, a couple of years ago I bought a used Rickenbacker and was surprised to see how well they held their value; how flat their depreciation curve is. As you pointed out, retail mark-up can reach 100% ... at least for asking-price purposes. And the same thing applies to Guild; it's going to get something approaching 100% (2 times cost) when it sells to a dealer.
Economically, the final selling price of a new Guild has been stepped on twice. At each point, and other than having a dealer to bitch at face-to-face in the case of defects and an original-owner-only warranty, no value was added. I guess an argument could be made that the premium paid for a new, warranted guitar is just paying Guild for a neck-reset in advance ... instead of out-of-pocket like used Guild buyers do but of course it's always wise to shop around.
No value added in this post either ... congrats on your new Guild.
fungusyoung
Senior Member
capnjuan said:
This is a great point.
Martins, with the exception from the 70's which was "generally" considered to be one of their weaker periods by many CFM purists, hold their values pretty well. There's no doubt that I could sell my 000-15 in 10 minutes for at least what I paid for it new. Contrast that with what I've seen happen with Corona & Tacoma era Guilds... the losses on those are pretty devastating because most consumers know they can get an equivalent Westerly (in most cases) for around half the price. In consideration of a New Haven made Guild, there's simply no way I would roll the dice on one unless I knew I was guaranteed to keep it for at least 10 years because the re-sale value is likely going to be equally brutal.
Guild has a very long ways to go in order to establish themselves as a premium high end builder. Comparisons to Martins with non-adi spruce tops are valid whether people here want to think so or not. Martin doesn't just change the tops on those Marquis models & charge 2 grand more for them... there's more to it than that. But, what is clear, is that a D28 has a formidable & long earned place out there for purchasers of new guitars. It's a gamble in my estimation for Guild to think people considering a new D28 will opt for an equal priced Guild D50. They're both great guitars, but one has a substantial market presence & the other has a very questionable re-sale value.
Guild's association with Fender will also not help given the historical perception of Fender's stabs at the acoustic market to date. Based on the comments here I have no doubts about NH churning out fine guitars, but I do have to question how smart of a move it was to go after this particular place in the market without having an established presence of any sort with the old standbys... particularly in this economy.
West R Lee
Venerated Member
fungusyoung said:
Couldn't have said it better myself. When I bought my DV72 and DV72 for $2000 each, there was no doubt in my mind then, nor is there now that I could have gotten my money back on them. Same with my 2001 D55 that I paid $950 for and the beautiful D30 I paid $550 for. I'll even go out on a limb and guess I could make a little money on them. I just can't bring myself to pay $2000-$3000 or more for a guitar that is yet proven to me. Why should I go out and spend $3000 on a koa guitar when New Hartford may be closed in a year (I sincerely hope they're not)? Then what is my limited edition koa guitar worth? That is what I'm referring to when I refer to VALUE.
And I can hear the arguement coming, "Well, are you buying a guitar for an investment, or are you buying it to play?" The answer is both. I want something I love to play that will hold it's value, and for the sake of variety, if I can afford it, I might want a few of them. Furthermore, it's in Fender's best interest to try and cater to guys that own more than one guitar, not somebody that buys that one, love of his life, guitar becuase that's all he'll ever need. I would think Fender would like nothing better than to cater to a whole bunch of Grots :wink: . But it's pretty hard to buy a bunch of guitars when they're priced sky high.
To me, Fender has jumped Guild into the market as if they're one of the big boys again. Equal to Martin, Gibson or Taylor. They may very well be equal guitars in terms of quality and tone, but John Q. Public doesn't know that yet. This is exactly what the dealer in Shreveport was telling me. Or is Guild counting on all of us old guys that remember what Guild WAS to carry them through? Now throw in all the great buys on used Guilds that are so appealing to us old guys into the equation......hmmm. Or is Guild trying to appeal to the younger crowd? You know, the kids coming up? Welp, the youngesr crowd has never heard of Guild........I've seen that with my own eyes and heard it with my ears so many times. Do those kids know Martin, Gibson and Taylor?.........just watch them light up when you mention the brands. They can't even go to their local music store and play a Guild if they wanted to, not in most parts of the country......but we'll order one for you :? :? :? ....order what? I thought I might be able to play one first. :shock:
I'm no business man, never have been.....and this is my very, very humble opinion, but what Guild needs to do, and I've said this many times before, is to reestablish themselves as that premier brand though advertisement and putting them in the hands of folks who are seen with them. Nothing makes me want to go out and buy a particular guitar like a good music video with a great guitar featured in it......nothing. Then after they begin to slowly come back with more reasonable prices, they can command the high dollar prices they're asking. Personally, especially in this economy, I think Fender is about to get Guild in a pickle again.....and I think if it happens again, Guild won't be back. I hope I'm very wrong. I hope they are prolific and enormously successful. I'll put my love for the brand up against that of any member of this board :wink: . Having said that, I'll go out on a limb right here and now and predict that if Fender doesn't lower their price point of Guild guitars, if they don't get them into the hands of highly visible musicians, if they don't change their marketing strategy and find a way to cater to young musicians, and if this economy doesn't improve, they won't be in business in a couple of years.....very sad, but very true.
West
fronobulax
Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
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I'm off my meds again. Sorry.
I find it interesting that resale value is a factor for so many people who buy guitars and express opinions here. My observation of folks who buy band and orchestra instruments is that they buy the best they can afford. Resale value is not a factor. Beginners who buy trumpets, for example, just buy something. When they stop playing the trumpet ends up in a yard sale or donated to a school. If they get better they buy a better trumpet and pass the old one on to a deserving beginner. Giving someone a start in music is more important to those players than squeezing every last penny out of a sale. At some point the playing and instrument are of similar quality and the instrument is played and kept for decades. Technical innovation is very slow paced and the point is usually reached where there is no point in upgrading an instrument. The folks I know and have known who make their living teaching and playing often have more than one instrument but they almost never are buying and selling in hopes of finding a better instrument or a better value.
So is using resale value as a purchase criteria something guitarists do more often than other instrumentalists or is it something amateurs (dedicated and otherwise) do more often than professionals or what? The analogy is way too strong but people who allow resale value to have a major impact on a guitar purchase seem to me to me like people who have a divorce lawyer lined up before they get married. Both cases seems to me to be lacking a fundamental element of commitment.
I was given the opportunity to read the Wall Street Journal fairly early in life and have been doing so for 40+ years. What Fender is doing with Guild seems to be the textbook strategies for turning a faltering brand around and using the luxury/premium image and market to do so. Are the folks telling us what Fender is doing wrong using a different textbook or are they just telling us what they think will work better with nothing behind their opinion? Is there an MBA with a focus on brand management in the house?
:wink:
I find it interesting that resale value is a factor for so many people who buy guitars and express opinions here. My observation of folks who buy band and orchestra instruments is that they buy the best they can afford. Resale value is not a factor. Beginners who buy trumpets, for example, just buy something. When they stop playing the trumpet ends up in a yard sale or donated to a school. If they get better they buy a better trumpet and pass the old one on to a deserving beginner. Giving someone a start in music is more important to those players than squeezing every last penny out of a sale. At some point the playing and instrument are of similar quality and the instrument is played and kept for decades. Technical innovation is very slow paced and the point is usually reached where there is no point in upgrading an instrument. The folks I know and have known who make their living teaching and playing often have more than one instrument but they almost never are buying and selling in hopes of finding a better instrument or a better value.
So is using resale value as a purchase criteria something guitarists do more often than other instrumentalists or is it something amateurs (dedicated and otherwise) do more often than professionals or what? The analogy is way too strong but people who allow resale value to have a major impact on a guitar purchase seem to me to me like people who have a divorce lawyer lined up before they get married. Both cases seems to me to be lacking a fundamental element of commitment.
I was given the opportunity to read the Wall Street Journal fairly early in life and have been doing so for 40+ years. What Fender is doing with Guild seems to be the textbook strategies for turning a faltering brand around and using the luxury/premium image and market to do so. Are the folks telling us what Fender is doing wrong using a different textbook or are they just telling us what they think will work better with nothing behind their opinion? Is there an MBA with a focus on brand management in the house?
:wink:
taabru45
Enlightened Member
One of my little guide lines is 'when you find out what works....stop looking'... :wink: Steffan (very proud owner of a newish NH Guild D50)
West R Lee
Venerated Member
taabru45 said:
And you should be Steff......you got yours at a very good price.
Of course, you could still be proud if you'd paid $5000 for it, but the bargain just makes it that much better, doesn't it?I'm still trying to decide what your logic is Frono? Price shouldn't be a consideration? :? Gosh, we don't get the Wall Street Journal way down here
.West