High prices of the new Guilds; maybe should shop around.

[bluesypicky]

To the attention of anyone with an interest in a sunburst New Hartford D-55, there is a demo one for sale at Wolfe guitars (Jupiter, FL) for $1850.00.
I saw and played it yesterday, the condition is a 9.5 out of 10, just a couple a micro scratches that couldn't even be captured on a photo that differentiate it from one straight out of the factory and IMO well worth the 400 or 500 dollars saved on average price of an "untouched" one.
The action is set up extremely low and the sound is really rich.

Disclaimer: This is F.Y.I. only, I have no interest in the sale of that guitar, but given the scarcity (much debated on this thread) of N.H. Guilds, thought it was worth mentioning.... :wink:

 

[chazmo]

You're also the only one who left New Hatford with a free guitar. 8)

Yes, I remarked to Pez as I was leaving that I was going home with two guitars, either one of which was worth more than the van I was driving :lol: (the other was my Artist Award). Believe me, I appreciate it every time I open the case.
Brad

Well, I left with 5.... But, I came in the door with 5.

 

[Ridgemont]

To the attention of anyone with an interest in a sunburst New Hartford D-55, there is a demo one for sale at Wolfe guitars (Jupiter, FL) for $1850.00.
I saw and played it yesterday, the condition is a 9.5 out of 10, just a couple a micro scratches that couldn't even be captured on a photo that differentiate it from one straight out of the factory and IMO well worth the 400 or 500 dollars saved on average price of an "untouched" one.
The action is set up extremely low and the sound is really rich.

Disclaimer: This is F.Y.I. only, I have no interest in the sale of that guitar, but given the scarcity (much debated on this thread) of N.H. Guilds, thought it was worth mentioning.... :wink:

Its got you name written all over it! :lol: It has been a while since you got another Guild and the percentage of rosewood in your collection is so so low. You need to take care of that. :lol: :mrgreen:

 

[bluesypicky]

Its got you name written all over it! :lol: It has been a while since you got another Guild and the percentage of rosewood in your collection is so so low. You need to take care of that. :lol: :mrgreen:

You know Ridge, I don't want to revive some earlier tensions from this thread , but as I was PM'ing another friend LTG'er, and as much as I love the classy bling on that D55 (particularly the colorful fingerboard inlays) my $800 Westerly DV-52 still sounds better to me. :shock: :shock: :shock:
It is a great sounding guitar tho, particularly when strummed, rich and powerful sound, but as you may know by now, I'm not that much of a strummer..... :wink:

 

[guildzilla]

Damn hard to beat the combination of tone, volume and bang-for-buck in a used DV-52 when comparing it to a new Guild guitar, even one available at a deep discount.

Since this thread is refusing to die, I'd like to address Frono's remarks about resale considerations and compare the market for mid-range and upper-range guitars to other instruments - violins, horns, bassoons, etc.

Guitars just have an iconic appeal to a large segment of the population, especially the baby boomer males. And this fact has driven consumer behavior in an unusual way. In buying and selling Guilds on e-Bay over the last few years, the most astonishing thing to me is how many guys own guitars and never play them. Yuppies with lots of spare cash started buying Martin D-45's and Guild D-55's in the 1980's as impulse items. Most never learned to play. And the collector market kept growing with more and more guys holding more and more guitars. Some of them only buy used stuff; some only buy new stuff.

The guys who fall into this category are a very large segment of the high-end market. Without them, the market for the expensive Martins, Guilds, Taylors would go splat in a hurry. The USA builders have catered to them for a long time, IMO.

I can't imagine collectors buying new or used trombones to display on a rec room wall. But thousands of guys do that with guitars.

Based on what I've experienced, I'd expect the high end market to be the most stable, so it doesn't surprise me that Guild covets a portion of that market share.

 

[Ridgemont]

Guitars just have an iconic appeal to a large segment of the population, especially the baby boomer males. And this fact has driven consumer behavior in an unusual way. In buying and selling Guilds on e-Bay over the last few years, the most astonishing thing to me is how many guys own guitars and never play them. Yuppies with lots of spare cash started buying Martin D-45's and Guild D-55's in the 1980's as impulse items. Most never learned to play. And the collector market kept growing with more and more guys holding more and more guitars. Some of them only buy used stuff; some only buy new stuff.

The guys who fall into this category are a very large segment of the high-end market. Without them, the market for the expensive Martins, Guilds, Taylors would go splat in a hurry. The USA builders have catered to them for a long time, IMO.

I can't imagine collectors buying new or used trombones to display on a rec room wall. But thousands of guys do that with guitars.

Based on what I've experienced, I'd expect the high end market to be the most stable, so it doesn't surprise me that Guild covets a portion of that market share.

Interesting 'Zilla. While I am not blessed (or cursed) with a large disposable income, I could see how one would use a high end instrument as a wall decoration, especially guitars. I was recently at a art festival/street fair and was perusing through a local artists work. He was recently commissioned to paint a rather large resonator guitar painting. It sold for roughly ~2-3K. He also told me he was in the process of painting a Martin D-42. Point being that, yes, guitars hold an iconic appeal in our culture. If the funds are there, I could see someone purchasing the "real deal" and just hanging it on their wall as a piece of art even if they don't play. It seems like a sin to me to let such a work of art go to waste by not being played, but hey I'm not the guitar police.

 

[guildzilla]

I understand that perspective, Ridge. The collector mentality certainly puts form before function and violates the made to be played motto. But, hey, most of us here on LTG at least can relate to the attraction. Default often teases himself about the magpie syndrome, the attraction to pretty, shiny things. It certainly relates to me when it comes to guitars.

There's a guy just a few miles north of me - single, affluent and an awkward social animal - who sold a bunch of higher end Guilds on e-Bay awhile back. Listed about six in one day, all $1,500 and up Westerly guitars. In addition, he sold a D-100 and a few others, too, over the next year or so.

I talked to him on the phone a couple times. His primary guitar fetish was for the Ovation Adamas models. He told me he had about 60 of them, making the Guilds expendable. He didn't even pretend that he played these guitars. Just hung them on the wall. Part Midas, part magpie.

Odd, yes, but I've found that even extreme examples like this guy are not uncommon.

Rest assured that US guitar manufacturers know this well. They won't be employing guitar police any time soon.

 

[chazmo]

Interesting theory, 'zilla, but I'm not entirely convinced that collectors have significant influence on the acoustic market. I've certainly observed the collecting behavior as a force in the electric guitar realm, but not nearly so much in acoustics. You certainly hit a valid point in that there are unquestionably *some* big-time collectors out there, and the other thing to remember is that the sheer volume of higher-end acoustics probably comes nowhere near the number of electrics (so a smaller collecting community can indeed have an impact). I don't know...

Of course, guitars of all kinds represent a MUCH bigger collectors market than brass/winds. E.g., as a trumpet player, I don't think I've ever met anyone who wasn't a player that had brass instruments in their house. And, there's no cross-pollenation either... as a trumpet player, I don't have trombones, horns, or tubas on my shelves. Sure, there are collectors out there, but it's crickets compared to guitars. And, frankly, there is a lot of volume out there. I mean, by the 1980s, Vincent Bach Corp (Selmer) had made at least 200,000 trumpets of mid- to professional-level quality. That's a lot of trumpets. And brass instruments can pretty much last forever. But, again, I'm talking about limited collector demand.

It sure is interesting. I have to admit that if I had unlimited $$ I'd probably fill my house with guitars. Electrics would even be easier (although I'm not interested) because they take up a lot less space.

 

[West R Lee]

Keep in mind that we've got a couple of members here who between them, probably own over 2 hundred New York, Hoboken and Westerly built guitars.......that's my guess on the number anyway.....I know Grot's got 90 something. You guys can guess the other. Nothing in the world wrong with it.....it's just their thing. Gosh, there's no telling how many old Guilds belong to the membership here. I know someone tried to take a count in a thread a while back.

West

 

[fronobulax]

We've discussed collectors vs. players before.

I think my previous point about resale value as a concern to guitarists may very well be due to the fact that there are more collectors of guitars than any other high end musical instrument. Plus, if you are a typical professional instrumentalist, you probably don't have the income to pay premium prices for the instruments in your tuba collection.

I find the suggestion that new high end or higher priced guitars are targeted at collectors, not players, to be somewhat intriguing. I wonder if a guitar builder can admit that without dealing with some kind of backlash? I suspect a lot of luthiers would be annoyed if their work became a wall hanging or just sat in a climate controlled storage area. But it may be a dirty little secret.

 

[capnjuan]

I'm not sure Guild or any other manufacturers lose any sleep over it but a brisk secondary market where their products hold on to a good chunk of their value encourages a new buyer because they'd know - either by choice or circumstance - if they let it go, they won't take too big a beating ... arguably the other reason why this crowd doesn't buy Estebans ... (why do you think he's smiling :wink: )

... I know someone tried to take a count in a thread a while back.

Hi West; it's up to 495 but hasn't been bumped for Steffan's new guitar, the Gent's new GSR, and a few others. Cheers!

 

[chazmo]

CJ, as a matter of fact, the Guild guys *do* lose sleep over this. They told us at LMG2010 that the price of the used electrics (and probably basses) is one of reasons (if not the primary reason) that they're not currently moving forward in that space. They're very concerned that they can't just re-enter that market successfully. With their Hamer and Ovation expertise, it certainly isn't for want of skills or desire that's holding them back.

 

[wontox]

Guitars just have an iconic appeal to a large segment of the population, especially the baby boomer males. And this fact has driven consumer behavior in an unusual way. In buying and selling Guilds on e-Bay over the last few years, the most astonishing thing to me is how many guys own guitars and never play them.

Regarding collectors who don't play, I've encountered a few: a guy who just loves archtops and has over twenty, some of them quite high-end, who freely confesses he can't play a note, and another guy who was selling some guitars on the 'List—he had a guitar similar to a rather unusual one I have, and I invited him to get together to play and compare. He kept declining until I figured out that although he had over twenty acoustics, he wasn't a player and was evidently a little embarrassed about it. A man who owns sort of a high-end vanity guitar store near here also confesses very limited ability with guitar. But it's cool that they like them so much just for visual appeal.

Guitars, as someone mentioned, are, to my knowledge, by far the most widespread collectible instrument. I'd hate to think, with nearly unlimited funds, how many instruments I would have. I'd like to think I'd stop at thirty total acoustic and electric or so; for me, more than that might be wretched excess, and some would hardly get played.

Wontox

 

[capnjuan]

... With their Hamer and Ovation expertise, it certainly isn't for want of skills or desire that's holding them back.

I haven't spent a lot of time looking at the Ovations but those Hamers ... they're nothing short of spectacular :shock:

With the good supply of vintage and RI Guilds on the lower side and the Hamers on the higher side ... finding a price point for re-re-issued Starfires without scalping Hamer sales ... not so easy to do.

 

[fronobulax]

This thread got me thinking, so I did a bit of number crunching to see how much things have changed.

Another numbers guy. Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Ridgemont]

Hey Little Songs,

Would you mind doing your forward calculation for a couple of guitars still in circulation. For example, something like a D50 or F30? I do not know how much these guitars went for back in the late 60s and 70s.

 

[chazmo]

Thanks for doing some of the math, littlesongs. It's a fascinating comparison. I have contended for many years that today's families have to spend more (relatively) on basic living (food, clothing, shelter) than their counterparts 50years ago. It's why the basic family unit is so stressed out trying to earn a living with two salaries or barely floating by with one.

So, at least in one respect, a "luxury" is not all that different, or perhaps less expensive (relatively) than it was back then.

 

[fronobulax]

We are looking at MSRP, correct? I understand a desire to be consistent but in a world where "Nobody pays retail anymore. Why should you?" we need to be careful when moving from the inflation adjusted price to the fraction of income. My JS II had a MSRP of $350 when I bought it in 1972 but I only paid $233 which was just about 66% of the MSRP.

 

[Ridgemont]

I always get frustrated with new guitar pricing. First you have MSRP or List Price. Then you get MAP (Minimum Advertised Price). Then you get the real price that the dealer is not allowed to advertise. For example, the MSRP or List Price on a new CT F30 is $2699. The MAP pricing is $2099. A dealer in town is selling the guitar for $1999 and I am positive he will take an additional percentage off for me to take it home. Frono said he got his JSII for 66% of MSRP. If I take this F30 home for $1999, that translates to ~74% off of MSRP. This 8% "increase" shouldn't be ignored. I think a bottom line comparison would be the bottom line price for both time periods which would be difficult to do as prices from dealer to dealer fluctuate.

 

[chazmo]

I think comparisons of MSRP are fair. Of course you guys are right, no one pays MSRP, but that's the data that's published. It'd be interesting to know if people are paying different percentage of MSRP these days for street price than they were back then. My guess is it's probably the same. Internet sales, however, may have changed that equation a bit.