Acoustic Guitar Magazine Cover Story: Guild!

fungusyoung

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Jeff said:
OK, I apologize for the crack about Plastic Martins, but I'm standing by the slippery Ovation reference.


No need to apologize! It's all subjective and to our tastes. For what it's worth, I completely agree with you about Ovations, but I also know several people that swear by them.... including one of my all-time favorites, Ray Davies.

You may be right about 000's being larger than Guild 20's. I was under the impression the M20 was larger than the F20, but I could be wrong about this.
 

Scratch

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Actually my D12X1 is a great travel and office guitar. It stays in tune nicely, and considering the price, it was money well spent. I'd never put it up against my Guild 12s, but then thats not why I bought it...
 

coastie99

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fungusyoung said:
Jeff said:
OK, I apologize for the crack about Plastic Martins, but I'm standing by the slippery Ovation reference.


No need to apologize! It's all subjective and to our tastes. For what it's worth, I completely agree with you about Ovations, but I also know several people that swear by them.... including one of my all-time favorites, Ray Davies.

You may be right about 000's being larger than Guild 20's. I was under the impression the M20 was larger than the F20, but I could be wrong about this.

Ray Davies.

Of Kinks fame ?

What is he currently up to ?
 

Graham

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The thought that rattled through my melon was why is Guild the one that seems to be dumped on the market?

There must be a cost to the dealer, same cost for every dealer?? Then they want to make a profit. I understand that's where some dealers differ in their approach. Some try the volume sales thing but what are the margins and what makes this brand any different from Taylor, Martin, Gibson?

Do they not also have a cost to the dealer then a profit margin for the dealer?

I'm just trying to understand this.

I don't know why a dealer would sell at zero profit, or below???
 

capnjuan

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Graham said:
I don't know why a dealer would sell at zero profit, or below???
This may not be the best analogy but, in the US and at gas stations and car dealerships, the gas and cars are sold with fairly low margins; in the old days of full-service gas stations, the gas was sold at cost and the profit made by marking up air filters, tires, and other accessories. A substantial part of auto dealer income is associated with financing, warranties, and accessories. The object of the gas/car dealer is to get you in by selling you something at/near cost so they can sell your something else.

The guitar center in West Palm Beach must have +/- 150 guitars in plain site; a few expensive Gibbons but mostly $250-$600 thrashing machines but the place is bursting with cables, strings, microphones, stands, sheet music, recording hardware/software on and on. It isn't necessarily true but it's not hard to imagine that such big-box retailers sell their guitars on thin margins - to get the customer in the door - and then do the hosing with the other stuff. It's a guess but one that fits the facts.

cj
 

fronobulax

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BluesDan said:
when I got home I tuned back in to check on that little sales counter they have in the corner of the screen. They sold over 15,000 of these so called guitars.

One of the dirty little secrets in pledge drives, such as public radio and TV in the US, is that there are often unreported pledges sitting in the producer's pockets. They pull them out and announce them when they sense a momentum boost is needed. It should also be noted that there is nothing but social pressure to honestly report numbers during the drive. (Afterwards is a different matter, at least for non-profits). All this leads me to ask just what that 15,000 counter means and why we should believe it?
 
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OK -- I haven't been here in awhile, but the cover story in AG got me...reflective. So, I come here for lively discourse coated with humour and not a little good sense. I was hooked in by several statements - Jim Samuels' query about 'why buy used when you can get a new one for just a bit more' and HoboKen's comment about 'tools of the soul' put me in a more philosophical mindset.

I HATE the term 'artist' - it's become a marketing catchphrase that really doesn't apply to many of the commercial entities it is used to represent (only oustript in overusage by the term 'icon'). However, as a serious singer/songwriter/arranger and ensemble member, I know what I am trying to accomplish. I know what touches me and what works in my artform and style. So, I look for specific sounds. A long time ago - I realized that Guilds have that sound. For some strange reason - and I've owned literally scores of instruments in a great variety of brand names - I came to rest comfortably in the cradle of Westerly Guilds. That's just me - it works for me - and I have no intention of pressing that on anyone else. Like Scratch noted, vintage instruments already have the sound that new instruments may or may not achieve in several years. That's a retelling of the old 'bird in the hand is worth two in the bush' adage, and I capture those birds whenever they are at a price my budget will bear. (At my age and experience level, I know what things are worth and am not just out for the 'cheap deal'.)

I am simply a singer/songwriter searching for a particular sound and Guilds from the Westerly years have that. None of the new ones I have played (Corona, Tacoma and Chinese) have it, though the Tacoma's showed the most promise for the future. I'm not interested in what Gibson, Martin, Taylor or other brands or even the many boutique makers are offering. Someone else may be, and that's fine. When I worked in Nashville in the early 80's, I felt like a "lonely only" with my G-37 in a literal sea of Martins and Gibsons. But I rarely went out without someone trying to purchase that guitar from me upon hearing it. Sadly, even then and with George Gruhn in town, a lot of players weren't even familiar (or vaguely so) with Guild. Guild has, it would seem, had a lifelong problem with marketing, but has done a pretty good job of word-of-mouth because the "big 3" of acoustic guitars were/are always given to be Martin, Gibson and Guild.

Thanks to dealers like Jay Pilzer, there are knowledgable sales opportunities for older Guilds. But, I agree with Jay here that dealers love guitars, but HAVE to make money to stay in business. That gives them a broad-based audience that they have to cater to, and assistance for single-minded players like us. I REALLY LOVE Don's statement that a bad instrument is the worst thing one can do to a beginner. That's where a good dealer comes in. Carol, like you, when I was teaching and selling, I recommended many a Yamaha for a beginner - affordable, a good value, a decent level of playability for the beginner and intermediate student. They really filled a niche, but not all makers want to fill all niches, and that's OK. Thankfully, there are/were good dealers like Jay Pilzer, Al Whitney and George Gruhn, who know what's out there and can match up a customer with a decent instrument for their level and within their market. But, too, shame on those dealers who are simply schlockmeisters out for the buck and seeing music as a good and safe line to get into.

(A note about the GAD line and dealers dropping it -- I have played a number of them. Just because they have the Guild name on them doesn't mean they are Guilds -they don't sound like Guilds, and I resent the AG story's basic line that Donnie Wade SAVED Guild by adding them and other "new" ideas and is continuing to march them proudly into the future. BUNK! There was a time there where even the Fender/Guild employees in Scottsdale had NO idea who was running Guild that week and it did change quite a lot. Visions for the future of Guild? I think not! But, let's hope ..... nevermind, let's just get on with our lives and see whether the brand recovers from this part of their rocky history....)

So, there it is. My thoughts on the matter. The story seemed like "placement" and as FMIC is a big advertiser - well, I've been a journalist/editor in both PR and publications for over 30 years and that is just how things work. Want ads? Pick up a magazine. Want truth and history - buy Hans' book(s). Want a guitar that is an extension of your soul, something that allows you to focus your inner thoughts and creative ideas into tangible music? Learn everything you can, play everything that's available, think carefully, look at your budget, and figure out what works for you. For me - it's Westerly Guilds - has been for over 35 years, and I don't expect that to change. As I've said many times before - all of the guitars I'll ever own have already been made. Love to you all...dbs
 
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SmithfieldFair said:
The story seemed like "placement" and as FMIC is a big advertiser - well, I've been a journalist/editor in both PR and publications for over 30 years and that is just how things work.

And I've written for AG on and off for fifteen years and never seen evidence of this practice (which is certainly not unknown elsewhere in the magazine biz). Go read Teja Gerken's replies on this thread's equivalent at the AG Gear forum (starting here: http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ul ... 027274;p=1), where he answers such suggestions in detail.

BTW, characterizations such as this question the integrity not only of the editors of the magazine but the writers who produce the copy (in this case, Ben Elder) and even cast some shadow on others who have written for the magazine (for example, me). It's just a bit insulting, and I would expect better judgment from an experienced professional. It may be "how things work" in some shops, but absent specific knowledge, maybe some caution and tact are in order.
 

fronobulax

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Russell Letson said:
BTW, characterizations such as this question the integrity not only of the editors of the magazine but the writers who produce the copy

I agree and tried to raise the point earlier - what is the evidence that FMIC contributed to and or influenced the article? If there is such evidence than all the comments about "FMIC reinvigorating the brand" might apply but otherwise there is a lot on this thread ascribing planning and motivation to FMIC that is probably not there.
 
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jwsamuel

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SmithfieldFair said:
I am simply a singer/songwriter searching for a particular sound and Guilds from the Westerly years have that. None of the new ones I have played (Corona, Tacoma and Chinese) have it, though the Tacoma's showed the most promise for the future.

To me, preference for a particular sound is the reason to prefer one brand of guitar, or even one era of a guitar. The only other thing that comes close is playing comfort. Anything else is irrelevant.

Jim
 
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Russell -- My intent was not to impune the integrity of either you, Ben Elder or other writers. However, and I would love AG to be the exception, as a professional journalist and former PR agent - I cannot tell you the times when I shopped a story and was either asked by the writer ("OK, I've just got to ask..." or "You know, they're gonna wanna know if you're interested in an ad in the same issue") or contacted nearly immediately by someone in sales about purchasing ads in the same magazine. As a musician/entertainer and head of an independent label, I also can assure you it is more common than anyone wishes to admit that when someone calls about the review or interview, there's an accompanying call to come about ads. Often, I say, 'sorry, just not in the budget right now, but maybe next issue', then the review/article fails to run (cut because of size, possibly to run later). By the same token, when working in Nashville a number of years ago, I was personally assured that if I wanted an article or review about the current release, the best thing to do is "make a show of good faith" and purchase a companion ad.

I'm not naive, and these sorts of practices are why I left certain sectors of journalism and entertainment. So, while my desire is to give the benefit of the doubt and while I wish to cast no aspersions on Mr. Elder OR the editorial staff at AG, the article did closely paralel the FMIC/Guild corporate storyline, made a number of inaccuracies and had some seeming omissions. I understand journalists write on a deadline and the good ones are even more pressed, so, it could have been that Ben just used the information provided (background for the article) assuming all things were equal. I don't mean this was done maliciously, but business is business and time is time.

A few years ago, I was the editor of a trade publication and chose to run a series of editorial cartoons that lightly poked fun at some areas of criticism and concern both within and without that trade. The publisher came in after the first one and said, "funny cartoon." On the fourth, he said "don't bite the hand that feeds you. XX is a big advertiser - kill that cartoon." I cannot tell you the number of letters I received after the cartoon failed to run the next time without any explanation. They accused me of caving into pressure, softening, pandering, loosing my nerve, etc. I was at a reception shortly thereafter, the president of XX whom I had never met approached me. "So, you're the idiot with the cartoon."

On his side - to his way of thinking, he was protecting himself, his company and his industry from undue criticism. He was doing effective public relations and making sure both his company's best interests were represented and what he felt could be damaging information was sorted out. As the rule of marketing goes, "Perception is reality."

That said, I certainly understand your point of view. You have one, I have one. Yours is based on your experience. Mine on mine. I am and have been for a long time a regular subscriber to AG and a number of other magazines. I always want to think the best of them. But, this IS a forum for friendly conversation and discourse about something close to all of our hearts - Guild Guitars. I have to say I am not the only one concerned about the story that's been put forth since FMIC bought Guild - stories championing Mr. Wade and FMIC for "saving Guild" and for advancing Guild's quality. Frankly, I haven't seen it - the instruments don't bear this out. So, without a more even-handed look at the product, the story came off as a bit biased.

So, again, my apologies to you and the journalistic industry, but these are not comments made without some background and some experience. Sometimes those who can pass through a shadow unscathed are to be praised. However insulting my remarks may have been to you - imagine how your comment impressed me... You said, "It's just a bit insulting, and I would expect better judgment from an experienced professional. It may be "how things work" in some shops, but absent specific knowledge, maybe some caution and tact are in order." My comments must have struck a nerve. Perhaps we could all show some more tact.
 

guildzilla

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I'm with you all the way, Smithfield, except that you are far more tactful.

I've also had a career as a writer and I've done pretty much the entire range at one point or another. Sometimes as a hired gun to represent one side of an issue. Sometimes as a journalist with an obligation to cover and represent multiple factions as objectively as possible. I also know that criticism hurts and I don't hand it out lightly. What criticism I offered was aimed at one magazine story. No offense intended to others on this forum who may have a different opinion.

This has been a very interesting thread because the topic was compelling. But it doesn't need to be divisive.
 
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The nerve that was struck is sore because about every third guy who thinks a review isn't negative enough or that an article or interview is too friendly or positive starts questioning the honesty or integrity of the writer or the editorial staff of the magazine in question. Usually it's someone who has never written a lick for publication or done serious research or had to assemble a coherent story from multiple sources with limited time and money. So that "that is just how things work" remark seemed pretty cavalier, especially coming from someone who should know both the rules and the exceptions.

And I do know about editorial shoddiness--thirty-some years ago, the consumer-audio field was famously rotten with sweetheart deals and backhanders, and you couldn't rely on the gear reviews to reveal problems or inflated specs. But in twenty-plus years of writing for trade and general-audience newsstand magazines I have never had an editor tell me to go easy on a company, or edit my copy to smooth over some point, or spike a story because it didn't take the desired line. I have been instructed on the angle to be pursued, been fact-checked, and been asked for explanations or expansions, but that's it. I could say "that is just how things work," but I know that my experience is not universal. (It may not even be common.)

Nor do I know exactly how the AG Guild article came to be written (how long Elder had to do it, how many sources he had, how forthcoming those sources were), but I do know what AG policy is and how I've been treated over a fifteen-year period by three successive editorial teams, and I trust Teja when he says they neither asked for nor expected a puff piece.

Here's an example from my non-music work. I am one of five regular book reviewers for a small but influential magazine. We rarely run a strongly negative review, and there are always some readers who kvetch about this, suggest weird theories for it, and generally make offensive remarks. The reason there are not killer reviews is that we review books that we like, or at least have finished reading--the editor will sometimes nudge a little because he likes a book, but in the end, no means no. (And I've been doing this for 17 years, so it hasn't gotten me fired.) Life is too short to read books you don't like, and we're not Consumer Reports, warning consumers away from faulty products--we're talking about books we enjoy and carrying on a continuing conversation about them. One very popular writer tried to get his publisher to cut advertising in the magazine because his books weren't reviewed--he took it as some sort of conspiracy or ideological-aesthetic policy, when in fact it was just that none of us could read his stuff. (And he didn't need the reviews anyway--his readership was large, enthusiastic, and self-sustaining, and he was getting rich.) But nobody wants to believe that we just read what we like. So finally, dissatisfied readers can question my taste, but that's as far as it should go.
 

hideglue

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Russell Letson said:
And I do know about editorial shoddiness--thirty-some years ago, the consumer-audio field was famously rotten with sweetheart deals and backhanders, and you couldn't rely on the gear reviews to reveal problems or inflated specs.

Umm.....Julian Hirsch?
 

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First, thanks for the kind words. Smithfield Fair has several CDs that show off their music and the instruments on which it is played.
The only reason to drop the GAD line is if they too are so heavily discounted that you can't sell them at a profit. They are really nice guitars in their own right and a great value. Remember that in our system we consider it legitimate to pay for both production and distribution. That latter is the dealers' role. We may be able to eliminate it much as we have eleminated the whoesaler in many industries. However, if the dealer network goes away, so too will service.
When I first played one I remarked that it didn't sound like a Guild and was told that this was deliberate. the idea was to get a good guitar in a player's hands to start and then hopefully move him/her to the American made Guild. I don't know if that has happened, but that was the plan.
 
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You know, there was an article about David Bromberg in the November issue that was pretty positive toward him. He must have paid the magazine to be a shill for him, right?

Jim
 
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David Bromberg paid them off? Ya think?

All kidding aside - I have to say that if nothing else, the article paved the way for one of the liveliest threads here. It was never my intension to disparage AG OR Ben - I simply stated my opinion that the article was really close to the company story/angle on this. That said, I have been involved in journalistic pursuits of a wide variety of areas since the late 1960's. I have worked for some editors and publishers who were of the most ethical and moral, but I've also worked for (not long) the opposite. Both are out there and I hope the former always prevail. However, I've also worked in hard news and what motivates many editors is beyond my sildest imagination. Admit, we've all read articles we loved and articles we hated in the same publication.

By the way, Russell, I recently got a particularly nasty review from a magazine reviewer who had never heard of my group, didn't like that kind of music, and just really wasn't interested. I nevertheless thanked him for his opinion. He responded and told me all about the books he'd written and the songs he'd sold and how hot his music career was. I had never heard of him, his books, his songs, or the artists covering his songs. I didn't say anything disparaging - just thanked him, but I learned later he was beset with many responses adding up to "if you can't say anything nice...." In four decades he wasn't the first to not like my music or the last - and it's just something you chance when you put it all out there.

I love dealers - specially guys like Jay Pilzer - I hope they're always in business. I love being on the road and stumbling into some shop that makes me feel like Alice in Wonderland. Not as common as they used to be, it seems, but we certainly don't want the dealers to go away. Then there would only be on-line buying. Horrors!

I love Guilds - I hope they recover their dignity. I have some opinions about it all. Being a Guild player for 4 decades and exclusively for most of that time, I have an excitement for them and, yes, I'm a bit protective of them. FMIC is now supposedly buying Ovation. How will fervent Ovation owners take all of this and what changes will they see? If there's an Ovation version of LTG, I hope so; I'll bet these same conversations go on there, too.

Now, I'm going to go back out and finish some gardening, then come in, take a shower and sit down with one of my Westerly Guilds. The facts of who owns Guild now, where they are made, who likes or dislikes them, what Fender says, who's nose is out of joint...none of this will matter then. But, I can tell you this....I am very thankful Don has provided this space for us - those of us who are obviously Guild lovers - to come together and share our thoughts without bumping heads too often and without allowing others to "jump on my last nerve." Peace to you all....dbs
 

fungusyoung

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coastie99 said:
Ray Davies.

Of Kinks fame ?

What is he currently up to ?



Indeed. He made a very good solo record a couple years back called Other Peoples Lives. I saw him live 18 months ago or so in Philly, and he was dynamite. Same old Ray.

Incidentally, a short time before this record was finished, Ray was nearly killed in New Orleans when he tried to stop the theft of his girlfriend's purse.

Here he is on the tour I saw with one of his Ovations:

MacQueen-Ray-BlueAcousticHat1.jpg
 
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