Acoustic Guitar Magazine Cover Story: Guild!

Scratch

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I understand your point, JW. At the same time, we must consider the rich tone qualities relative to vintage vs. new. I just bought a 1983 vintage Guild that has the sound characteristics my newer guitars will take years to achieve... I'll buy a cherry aged vintage guitar vs. new on most occasions...
 

Graham

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What puzzles me is the number of Taylors and Gibsons at the show in Texas, yet they're able to still command higher prices. :?

I know it's to each their own, but I played several new Taylors over the weekend right beside new Guilds and, to me, it was no contest. Guilds hands down.
 

zplay

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As to the lack of new Guilds on display, the problem is that people demand such deep discounts to buy them, which some dealers are willing to give, that you can't make any money selling them. As I noted to many of you in Arlington, the focus is on how cheap can you get something. That is fine, but the consequence is that carrying new guitars just makes little economic sense for a dealer. When buyers want to buy a $2000 guitar for no more than $1200 (which I have been told was one fellow's rule), a dealer will have to put his/her money elsewhere.
For example, the new D-40 is a great guitar with specs similar to the pricey Martin D-18 GE. At a street price of $1500 it is a bargain for a player and there is enough profit to make carrying it worthwhile. At a sale price of $1200 there isn't.
Dealers do this from a love of guitars and to make a profit. I for one cannot afford to stock guitars as a public service. I try to price my guitars fairly so that neither the buyer nor I are ripped off. However, a reasonable profit is essential. The ebaying of America has worked
As the owner of three recent Guilds, this trend in pricing has me concerned. The selling prices of Guilds has declined since I bought mine, particularly among those dealers who sell on eBay. As the prices for new guitars drop, so to do the prices of used Guilds, which in turn puts more pressure on the price of new Guilds. My concern is that as the prices drop, more and more dealers will stop carryying Guild and that will lead to the brand's demise.

Jim

As it happens, I was talking over the phone with a local dealer who does seem to be dropping his Guild GAD line and spoke glowingly of replacing them with an import line of Gibson's that will be coming out. He also mentioned another major manufacturer that is doing the same thing. I had been to his shop once to have his tech look at a guitar and got to play a several GADs, a couple of which really impressed me and were significantly discounted. He only has one left, so evidently managed to sell them in several months, but could not have made much on them. I think he never saw Guild as occupying other than a low end position in his shop, but I still was sad too hear about him dropping the line. Also, it's a bit scarey to hear about how much competition Guild faces, particularly from more established brands.

Paul

Paul
 

fronobulax

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jwsamuel said:
When the price of new guitars drops, sellers of used guitars have to drop their prices to sell. After all, not as many people will buy used when they can get new for only $100-200 more.
Jim


OK I know where my deja vu comes from because this ground has been plowed before. You believe the above is true. I am not prepared to agree with you. It may be true but my experience has been otherwise. It may be appropriate to distinguish between players, collectors and investors because the statement seems to me to be false for collectors and false for people on a budget. I have, for example, a friend who has never owned a new guitar and that is because he buys his guitars on layaway at prices of $100 to $200. What appears to us as a slight price difference between new and old prices him right out of the new market. He aspires to a Guild - I've corrupted a youth - but price and the Guild logo will drive his purchase and not new or used.

I'll try to remember we have agreed to disagree before and not bring it up again :)
 

Scratch

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Graham said:
What puzzles me is the number of Taylors and Gibsons at the show in Texas, yet they're able to still command higher prices. :?

I know it's to each their own, but I played several new Taylors over the weekend right beside new Guilds and, to me, it was no contest. Guilds hands down.

Amen Graham... I felt like I was in a sea of Martins, Gibsons and Taylors. At the same time, I felt a certain pride looking for the brand I've selected through through study and experience. I made an educated decision to be apart from the established crowd; confident in my ability to distinguish quality from quantity and the status quo...

I can't imagine finding the same rapport among a crowd of Gibson, Taylor, or to a lesser extent Martin, groupies...
 

jpilzer

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Taylor and Gibson have done far more to maintain a price structure that allows dealers to make a profit. Taylor has tried to maintain advertised price levels and territories. Gibson has greatly contracted its dealer network (although they seem to be expanding it again). That is why you will see more in stores and at shows.

I know many dealers who have dropped Martin, Fender, and other brands just because they can't sell them and make a living. As one friend of mine said, he can invest $700 and make a $125 profit on a Fender or invest $200 and make $125 selling a Johnson. He is really left with no choice if he plans to stay in business.
This shouldn't come as a big surprise. The American pubic has demanded low prices and got them. However, the cost is that American manufacturing is on its way to extinction.
 

zplay

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This shouldn't come as a big surprise. The American pubic has demanded low prices and got them. However, the cost is that American manufacturing is on its way to extinction

I don't disagree with this statement about the trend in our manufacturing, but I have to say that with regard to guitars atleast, it has not been true that i have sought out or demanded low-priced guitars. - Actually, it's the opposite: my general trend has been toward more costly guitars, atleast up to a point. I own a CV-1C and was not looking for cheaper GADs for example; rather, they were in a way thrust right up in front of my nose unexpectantly. Once I saw the quality at that price, i had to think about it and came close to buying. I think the manufacturing and pricing tactic originated with the domestic company/corporation looking to get an advantage over its competitors by under-selling them. Before this spate of low-priced, high quality Asian imports started, I only remember there being a few good quality Canadian brands in that bracket like Seagulls and low-end Larrivees. It never occurred to me that solid wood, good-sounding, smooth-playing guitars at these low prices would come along. I didn't demand them; it's more like the producers demanded that i deal with this new reality.
 

West R Lee

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There's another side to that story too though Jay. I blame our government, but also blame greedy Americans, of which I am one.

There is absolutely no way that an American guitar manufacturer can compete with labor costs overseas. In 2000, I worked in Southeast Asia for several months training guys that do the same thing I do. The were paid excellent wages there by the company I work for......about 15 times less than I make here. The company I work for commands the same prices for their products all over Asia that they do here.

Cheap labor, decent guitars.......but not Westerly quality.

West
 

jpilzer

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My point is that people are looking for cheap prices on good quality high end American guitars and can often get them from dealers who either try to make money by selling large numbers at very low profit or who are strapped for cash. That makes it unprofitable to carry a brand and many dealers will stop carrying it. At a certain point the manufacturers can no longer sell enough to dealers to make any money so they will be forced to abandon US manufacturing.
The only example I can find of bucking this trend is Harley Davidson who mangaged to make their brand so iconic that people will pay for the US product.
If you read this or other discussion boards, much of the talk is about how cheaply somebody scored a guitar. That is understandable on an individual level, but if that is the driving force the consequnces will be an end to large scale American guitar making. Also remember that we are not talking about a situation where the imported guitar is a piece of junk. Some of the Chinese guitars, all of the Mexican Fenders, and many Korean made guitars play, look, and sound fine.
 

Carol

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While I agree with the balance of the postings here, I don't think you can blame the American public for any of this. Most of the guitar-buying American public are NOT guitar experts. They are beginners, or parents of beginners, looking to buy their first guitar. Armed with little or no knowledge and a credit card, they begin their search. They have "heard" of Martins (at least they think the remember a name like that), and perhaps Fender. Beyond that, they know nothing.

And then along comes a group people who knows how to market. Think of the TENS of THOUSANDS of ESTEBAN guitar kits sold by HSN (Home Shopping Network) and QVC to the unsuspecting public. I have heard that these guitars are junk, but still they sell. And sell. And sell. The people who buy them don't know what a guitar should sound like -- or how it should feel when played. They get their ESTEBAN guitar kit... try to play it. When they can't play well, they decide they have no talent or don't have the hand strength, and put it into the closet. It will be on Ebay for $25.00 in 10 years when they clean out that closet.

Have the American guitar manufactures even TRIED to market their guitars to this market? Oh yeah, they advertise in guitar magazines. But do you think mom and dad read the guitar magazines when they are shopping for a guitar for little Bobby's birthday?

When you think about it, when was the last time you saw a television commercial for any type of musical instrument? Perhaps it is time for these manufacturers to aggressively go after this market. After all, we all know that people fall in love with their first instrument (if it's one of quality). Sell them a Guild for their first guitar, and you'll probably have a Guild buyer for life.

I can see it now - Guild on QVC -- a complete guitar kit for priced at the manufacturer's cost -- get them their first Guild... Get them hooked... and the rest will be history!
 
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jwsamuel

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zplay said:
I didn't demand them; it's more like the producers demanded that i deal with this new reality.

You may not have demanded them, but from your description of yourself, you are not the typical guitar buyer.

The typical buyer -- parents purchasing a guitar for their sons or daughters, teens or 20s purchasing guitars for themselves, or adults who do not have a lot of disposable income and want to get themselves a good guitar and still save for their kid's college education -- are concerned with cost and do want high quality at a low price. They are the majority of the guitar market and they are who the Asian imports are aimed at.

Jim
 

dklsplace

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Good post Carol. Unfortunately, the few starter/beginner kits that the major companies seem to be able to price down into that market aren't of much quality either.

When a parent comes to me with a potential new student & asks what they should buy, I usually offer my services to watch for used instruments. I tell them, "you can buy a brand new packaged beginner guitar set for $150+, & if your child doesn't like it, sell it for $75. Or you can find a used instrument for $75 that we can work with, & lose little or nothing if it doesn't work out." A bad instrument is the worst thing you can do to a beginner.
 
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jwsamuel

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Carol said:
While I agree with the balance of the postings here, I don't think you can blame the American public for any of this. Most of the guitar-buying American public are NOT guitar experts. They are beginners, or parents of beginners, looking to buy their first guitar. Armed with little or no knowledge and a credit card, they begin their search.

Absolutely correct. And I believe the current situation is so much better than it was 35-40 years ago when I tried to start playing. I really wanted to learn to play guitar but my parents could not afford to get me a Martin, Gibson or even a Harmony. So I ended up with some plywood mess that had 1/4 inch action at the 12th fret. The end result was that the guitar was so hard to play that I gave up and did not touch a guitar again until about three years ago.If only Blueridge had been around in 1969!

Carol said:
When you think about it, when was the last time you saw a television commercial for any type of musical instrument?

Last Christmas. For Epiphone and aimed exactly at the market you have described....parents buying Christmas gifts for their kids.

As for the guitar kits you suggested for Guild..Fender sells a ton of Squier kits every Christmas. They have a Squier Strat and a 15-watt amp. Go to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash during the Christmas season and watch those packages fly out of the store.

Now, when the kid gets good playing his Squier Strat, how long before he wants a Fender Stratocaster?

Jim
 

Carol

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JW -- exactly... I still have a romance with my first guitars... and a brand loyalty. While I eventually discovered my Guild, I still recommend Yamaha as beginner instruments. I've probably sold 10 kids and their parents on starting with a Yamaha if they are buying a new instrument for their "first." I'm probably full of toffee, but I have that loyalty in my brain when it comes to beginner guitars.

So if Guild could get into people's heads... Make an outstanding beginner kit... advertise. I missed the Epiphone advertising, but they have the right idea. Building brand loyalty is the first lesson of "Business 101." Why has the music instrument industry all but ignored this? I have seen the "beginner kits" in the stores... but have only seen ads for them in the newspapers. Macintosh would not have made their dramatic comeback if they had only advertised in the newspapers! It is their clever TV advertising backed by solid products that has brought them back from the edge of obscurity.

I can see a sexy, modern Christmas TV ad for Guild -- "Give them the gift of music... Guild -- created to release the music in your soul, and built to last a lifetime."
 

West R Lee

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Well I received my AG Magazine in the mail yesterday and finally read the story. HMM, did anyone other than me notice the extensive coverage of the Corona years? :shock: It really was like they'd rather forget that time in history, wouldn't mind us forgetting it either.

The other things I found interesting were the "wild humidity fluctuations in Rhode Island", or something like that. Did the humidity not fluctuate from '69 till '01?

:? I'm confused. The need for a factory overhaul at Westerly was mentioned.

West
 

capnjuan

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Guess not; elst there'd be more crooked-necked guits, no?
 

zplay

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You may not have demanded them, but from your description of yourself, you are not the typical guitar buyer.

The typical buyer -- parents purchasing a guitar for their sons or daughters, teens or 20s purchasing guitars for themselves, or adults who do not have a lot of disposable income and want to get themselves a good guitar and still save for their kid's college education -- are concerned with cost and do want high quality at a low price. They are the majority of the guitar market and they are who the Asian imports are aimed at.

Jim

Yes, I may not be the typical buyer, being a middle-aged, late-to-the-dance hobbyist, who is not on his first( or second or third...) guitar. But, I get the sense from participating in these forums, that I belong to a sizable demographic. Another forum just ran a pole about the age range of participants and the largest sectors comprised people in their 40s and 50s! Again, this may not be an accurate representation of the guitar-buying public, but it must represent an important part of the market. It seems like we're talking about different parts of the same elephant here: some refer to the low-end, entry level and generally young players, whose parents are doing the buying and others refer to young and middle-aged adults who are buying for themselves and are knowledgeable about quality. I gathered that Jay was referring to the latter customers while describing people looking to pay little for quality instruments and to whom some store owners are capitulating by low-balling their good quality American-made guitars, which may in turn undermine these brands for other sellers. On top of this, there are now the very nice Asian imports and some eastern European which come in way below ours.

To bring back into this discussion the AG Guiild article, I was very happy to see the publicity, no matter how incomplete the info may have been, because I think bringing attention to the brand is the right way to try to increase customer interest among serious enthusiasts, which may in turn soon allow retailers to hold the line on their prices. So, for Guilds, I don't see why, in theory, GADs can't coexist alongside Tacoma-mades, so long as the latter offer something more than the GADs, such as red spruce tops, different tonal objectives and ornamentation, new build approaches such as in the Contemporaries, etc. Somebody in his/her 20s may start with a GAD, love it and keep it, but want to try something higher up the line ultimately. If the professional players he or she admires are seen holding American Guilds, they are more likely to consider that it might be worthwhile to pay somewhat more for one. Even as they get into their late 20s and 30s and have kids, they're still going to be spending on some non-essentials like the latest electronic devices, so why not a guitar? - That's what the plastic is for! :roll: Obviously, you need a big company with some serious cash to pull off this marketing and exposure and that's why I'm happy Fender's there.
 

fungusyoung

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zplay said:
Another forum just ran a pole about the age range of participants and the largest sectors comprised people in their 40s and 50s! Again, this may not be an accurate representation of the guitar-buying public, but it must represent an important part of the market.


Gotta agree with you here. The entry level market is one thing, and while that may be a sizable animal, I cannot imagine the profits in that come even close to the higher end and custom shop level guitars that a much smaller demographic shops for. Selling a thousand guitars/starter kits for 15- 20 bucks pure profit is fine for a Guitar Center, but probably not for your typical dealer. Though I really feel for dealers because the Ebay/Craigslist factor alone has revamped the entire landscape of the used market.

As far as the article goes... could or should we really expect anything different from FMIC?
 
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