What "Wood" a Hoboken & Westerly Guild be?

[HoboKen]

Wood thickness.......A Luthier art unto itself!

When the luthier builds the guitar, its a fine walk on the razor's edge of sound. Too thick and the player artist has a heavy guitar with a less % of possible sound for the volume of the sound chamber. Thicker wood doesn't vibrate as much as thinner wood.

I've handled some older Guild acoustic dreds that weighed in at heaver than a Gibson Les Paul. (Good LPs are suspose to be real heavy; Guild dreds aren't.)

I remember that Taylor, when they first came onto the acoustic scene built light guitars with tops that were very thin. they had great sound, but didn't last more than a year before the bridges started pulling up, etc. It almost ruined the company right off. Taylor had to start making the woods thicker for durability.

A Guild acoustic has always been a little heaver than a Martin, model for model. I do believe that is why it has a better balance of treble and bass and carries the bass better than a Martin. The trick for "Tacoma Guild" to figure out, and I believe they are trying, is to keep the guitar as light as possible without killing the great "Guild" sound that a certain weight (wood thickness) provides just this side of human neck and guitar tone-killing "Heavy."

I am encouraged by what I see in the newer Tacoma D-55s.

HoboKen

 

[HoboKen]

John,

Maybe iamru02 or others can give us a more in-depth enlightenment on the George Gruhn Guild Years' Acoustic Guitars. I believe the D-Deco Custom Shop Headstock is a direct result of the Gruhn Years.

HoboKen

 

[Bluesbob]

What about my...

'75 D35? Where does that fit in your estimation? Too late in the '70's? I know the mahagony is a very good grade (from Honduras?). The top, while having a nice, tight grain, does show a slight difference in shade from one half to the other, with no flame or other embellishments. It is heavier than a Taylor, but easier (for me) to play. Intonation is just about perfect, especially for a guitar without an adjustable bridge. I measured this on a Peterson VS1. Fairly light, too.

 

[HoboKen]

I'm not sure, but I think the D-35 in the 70s was/is a D-25 with a Spurce Top in the 90s?? Anyone else know for sure?

HoboKen

 

[Bluesbob]

It has a spruce (Adirondack?) top and a flat back with bracing and no scalloping (that I can see) on the top braces. Gold Guild logo like a D25.

 

[Metalman]

Russell said: "But I still think that nothing will quite match a mid-60s example, and they remain very rare--I've only played one or two in more than 20 years of looking. (A very reliable repair/restoration guy I talked to insists that the good-sounding ones were built too light and developed fatal structural problems, but my old D40 and M20 are both very sturdy as well as sweet.)"

Russell,

It would seem to me that just like an old car that has a good structural quality to it, and needs some major surgery to get it running again, a well-built guitar such as a Guild F-30 from the period you mentioned should be able to be brought back to life by a very good luthier/repairman.
If the good wood is there, aged and all, and the sound is there to begin with, then is it worth it to spend a few hundred dollars to fix those fatal structural problems. Fix the braces, fix the bridge, tailpiece, neck reset and all, etc.
I've seen such instruments on Ebay that had some of those problems, the price was low enough, and it looked as though it would have been a good investment to just grab the deal, and make plans to take it right away to the local repair guy. Some of the issues I saw were stuff that I could have done myself.
Then again, I like to putz around. Work on stuff. That's just me . . .

 

[Metalman]

My gosh, you guys are going to have to contract out to Hans to do portions of Volume II. :wink: Pretty good analysis guys. Great job.

West

Actuall, West, we are doing our part to beat Part II to the punch! :wink: If all this information keeps up, Hans won't have anything to write about. :shock:

 

[West R Lee]

:lol: I know.........................I'm afraid I won't have anything to learn from Volume II.

Actually, I can't wait for it to be published. So amazing to me how Hans compiles all of his information. I can certainly see how it would take so long to research, write and publish something like that.

West

 

[Metalman]

:lol: I know.........................I'm afraid I won't have anything to learn from Volume II.

Actually, I can't wait for it to be published. So amazing to me how Hans compiles all of his information. I can certainly see how it would take so long to research, write and publish something like that.

West

West, you replied while I was still editing my post!
You know, when I first read The Guild Book, I really thought it was an old book, like from the late '70's or something. I had often wondered why Hans stopped at 1977. Delving deeper into the Guild Story, I read where Carlo Greco had left the company in 1977, and an era of Guild came to an end. I'm guessing that is why.
Hans, you out there? Am I right?

 

[hansmoust]

I had often wondered why Hans stopped at 1977. Delving deeper into the Guild Story, I read where Carlo Greco had left the company in 1977, and an era of Guild came to an end. I'm guessing that is why.
Hans, you out there? Am I right?

Hello Metalman,

Actually, the real reason why I stopped at 1977 is the 'complete mess' Guild made during the first half of the '80s. I mean that from a researchers viewpoint. Too many short run models, inconsistent model specifications, no proper documentation and too many variations for one model.
This made it impossible to know (let alone write) about a specific model or variation unless you would actually come across one. Since I was struggling with that period (to some extent I still am) and I had more than enough material on the earlier years, I decided to do the first 25 years; seemed like a good solid figure.
I'm still happy with how the book came out even though there turned out to be a couple of small mistakes in it, but that's inevitable with this kind of research. I would like the second book to be similar in approach, which is not easy when you realize that since 1978 Guild produced more than 3 times as much different models compared to the first 25 years. There's no way I can do 3 times the amount of pages, so I'm trying to come up with a creative solution that will result in a book that is at least 'as good as' the one I did before.

So, basically I'm ready with the book as far as the information is concerned (although I'm still adding little pieces of info when they come along), but it's a matter of compressing the amount of info into a format that will work. So it will take some time before I'm ready to publish and you all will need to wait. But you can be sure that you will hear about it first on this Forum when I'm getting closer to a possible publication date.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[iamru02]

Hans,
I speak for myself but I'm sure it's echo'ed from just about everyone in LTG or anyone who you have so willingly shared information with.
Not trying to float your boat but your knowledge is emmense, your professionalism is unquestionable and your love for Guild is clear for all to see.
Book one is supurb and I'm sure Book two will be as well. I can't imagine the task you have taken upon yourself, compiling all the information you described. We will have to patiently wait for book two but will do so with the knowledge of the effort you have taken. I hope there is a "Preface" or "About the Author" that properly credits that effort and makes note of your role in "The History of Guild Guitars" that you so rightly deserve.
I have no doubt that this is the result of your love for Guild Guitars but I also hope that you get rich beyond your wildest dreams.
I'm sure my request goes without saying but....please make sure your publisher prints enough copies cause I have a feeling it's going to go like hot cakes. One more thing, if it's not a bucket of worms for you, I would prefer to get my copy from you, full retail, whatever. Not only because it would come from the author but also justly compensate you directly for your effort.
Thank you so much. We await your announcement

 

[Metalman]

Hans said: "So, basically I'm ready with the book as far as the information is concerned (although I'm still adding little pieces of info when they come along), but it's a matter of compressing the amount of info into a format that will work. So it will take some time before I'm ready to publish and you all will need to wait. But you can be sure that you will hear about it first on this Forum when I'm getting closer to a possible publication date."

Hans,

Sounds good to me. I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

 

[HoboKen]

Hans,

I was not even thinking about stealing your's or anyone's thunder in anyway when I wrote what I have here. It was meant to be only a "Thumbnail Sketch in a Nutshell" of what we all have talked about in one thread or another on LTG already, not even close to a whole book! I'm sure your research is far more indepth than mine, save for the first-hand accounts from my Westerly Factory visits way back when and my observations of my own and close friends' Guild Guitars and old catalogs.

I guess its the old high school teacher/college instructor in me that just wanted to shed some light on things as best I could and at the same time ask others to speak up where they know first-hand of something different than what I put down. That's what was and is the only reason here.
It's what LTG was created for.

I too look forward to your Volume II...I too would like to buy from you an "autographed" copy if that be possible. You know we've been buggin'
you to "cut 'er loose" for over two years now. I do realize how close to perfect you desire Volume II to be. I applaude you for that. I can't wait to see all the new pictures of the Guilds I've never seen before.

Do you have a good picture of a Mark 7? You know of my firend's Mark 7 if you need that picture. A picture of Charlie Byrd's would be even better.
...or was that his Mark 7 he's holding in Volume I?

Of course you have West's and my DV-72s to get pictures of if you want them....and West's 73 also. Somehow do use the company pictures of Waylon Jennings and Deana Carter with their Guild D-55s if possible.

HoboKen

 

[hansmoust]

Hans,

I was not even thinking about stealing your's or anyone's thunder in anyway when I wrote what I have here.

Hey HoboKen,

Not for a moment was I thinking along those lines!

Don't worry about it! This Forum should be fun!

Now, all you hardcore fanatics! Go to the Miscellaneous section and click on the

Guild Headstock Logos thread.

See you there!

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[HoboKen]

About the trees.......

Recent growth years have been warmer and longer making for a greater width between the rings. This is not good for a tight close grained spruce wood.....or tonewood for that matter. Older trees that have taken years and years to grow with small spaces between the rings because of short growing seasons are best, i.e., trees from the North Countries. Even then in Northern climates newer trees don't provide what the older trees did.

Somewhere in the North West or Central North West there is a river that has tree logs that fell off barges over a 100 years ago and went to the bottom......sitting there all this time with great tight ring growth, they are being harvested and un-waterlogged by a company who then gets insane prices for this perfectly aged and restored virgin timber. Luthiers from all over are paying high prices to get enough wood to make just one guitar out of this re-discovered wood.

Remember, Martin Pays $2600 for the raw wood alone for just one dreadnought guitar's worth of Brazilian rosewood.....that's before they even start to age it and shape it. The water-logged maple and spruce is going for some insane price like that. Good Grade Mahogany may soon be as rare. Buy your D-40 now before it triples in the raw wood cost alone........

Or......we all get Rain-Song Carbon Fibre Guitars.

HoboKen

 

[Jeff]

Somewhere in the North West or Central North West there is a river that has tree logs that fell off barges over a 100 years ago and went to the bottom

It's the Columbia river, & the logs are left over from the great days of logging when they floated humungous rafts of logs downstream to the mills.

They are using some high tech sonar devices to locate the logs & pulling them off the bottom with an excavator floated on a barge.


Taylor has a video on their site showing harvesting ancient Spruce timber from storm blowdowns in Alaska. It's worth a look if you haven't seen it. I had to download the latest version of windows media player to access the video.
http://www.taylorguitars.com/video/wood ... e_high.wmx

 

[john_kidder]

Here's the "Sawfish", developed and operated by some very fine folks on Vancouver Island:
[IMG:760:207]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/john_kidder/sawfish_pan.jpg[/img]





Click here for lots more: Triton Logging
It's not just about submerged trees that have been lost - it's about millions of trees underwater behind dams. Complete, sound, undamaged, rot-free, and some are first-growth and very old.

These guys use video to locate the trees, then send this submersible down, guide it from a barge with on-board cameras, attach a flotation bag, snip the tree and float it to the surface, and tow to a portable mill. Very very cool.

The VP Engineering, Norm Keevil, is an old friend. I've been trying to convince him to go for the great tonewood in the flooded valleys in the tropics and temperate climates. Think of the ancient rosewood and mahogany in the deep gorges in Brazil and Malaysia, the spruce and maple in the northwest and northeast. But Norman's right - there are billions of dollars worth of ancient wood out there - the tonewood's really small potatoes for these guys.

The difference between this technology and the "drag-em-out-of-the-lakebed" stuff Jeff refers to is the environmental damage to the bottom, the siltation of the reservoir and general mucking about with a pretty quiet system which is, after quite a few years, fully adapted to the water. This is immensely clean and efficient. Much less damaging than regular logging, with clearcuts, skid roads, landings, piles of crap, miles of haul road and erosion.

Maybe some of us should get together and form a group to specialize in ancient trees for modern instruments.

 

[Victor Denance]

My father was working in Nicaragua back in the early 70'.
He remembers genuine Mahogany being harvested in very large quantities in order to make... doors for the US market.
Very sad really.

 

[HoboKen]

And Now! ........

Q: Why does a flat-top guitar have two pieces of Spruce or mahogany?

A: It's called a "Butterfly Flip" of the Wood. To try to balance the treble and the bass sound waves within the sound chamber of a guitar, you want the good vibrations as equal on one side of the guitar as on the other side.

By cutting the same piece of wood filet'-style and flipping the cut piece over to the right or left, you get the same grain on the left side as on the right side of the top or bottom of the guitar in relatively the same position within the shape of the guitar. The same is done with the sides on good guitars.

Q: What about an arched-back guitar?

A: A rounded plyed tone-wood (not plywood) back is of one compressed piece when finished. Because of the rounded shape of the back focusing the sound waves towards the soundhole, the left-right position of the grain of the wood is not as important as on a flat-backed guitar. It may well be that arched-back guitar is louder than its flat-back counter part.
Maple seems to be the wood of choice for this application. Some mahogany is workable in this approach. But, rosewood is not as easily worked into such arched shapes.

Please add more if you know more!

HoboKen

 

[Metalman]

About the trees.......

Remember, Martin Pays $2600 for the raw wood alone for just one dreadnought guitar's worth of Brazilian rosewood.....that's before they even start to age it and shape it. The water-logged maple and spruce is going for some insane price like that. Good Grade Mahogany may soon be as rare. Buy your D-40 now before it triples in the raw wood cost alone........

Or......we all get Rain-Song Carbon Fibre Guitars.

HoboKen

OR, we just buy old guitars, and forget about the new ones. Sorry, Guild , Rainsong, Martin, Gibson and all you guitar makers out there. I'll put my hard-earned money into an old guitar anyday, and the problem of disappearing good wood is taken care of.

Actually, there is some more old logs somewhere in a river in Washington State, and they have been frozen for thousands of years, and a certain drum company bought them all, and is pulling them out, log by log (as they need them), and making really top-notch drums - rack toms, floor toms, bass drums, etc. - and selling them at a premium price.