What "Wood" a Hoboken & Westerly Guild be?

[HoboKen]

Edited & Revised....Older Guild Acoustic Guitars In a Nutshell
(Let's Try It This Way.....From Old Guild Catalogs and HoboKen & Friends' Guild Collections)

“Rule of Tonewoods” – (Back and Sides):
Mahogany - Loud, Mellow, With a Great Mid-Range Response.
Maple- Bright, Brilliant, With a Jazzy Treble Response.
Rosewood- Loud, Deep, Smooth, With a Great Bass and Treble Response.

Spruce Tops- Graded from “A” to “AAA+.” The straighter & tighter the Grain, The Higher and Better the Rating!

Note: “All” are quality solid woods' USA made instruments……….Please remember, for every generality mentioned here, Guild probably had at one time or another, at least one exception in some way or another…..only Alfred Dronge, Willie Fritscher, and…..Hans…. know for sure?

"Guildese" -
D = Dreadnought
G = Another Prefix for "D" ?
F = Regular, More Traditional Guitar Body
JF = Jumbo F-Body
XL = Extra Large F-Body
HG = High Gloss
NT = Natural Top
V = Vintage Gloss Finish
SB = Sun Burst Finish
AB = Antique Finish
R = Rosewood
P = Pearwood
M = Mahogany Body and Top or Mahogany stained spruce top
MA = Maple
S = Spruce Top and/or Satin Finish
LS = Long Scale
C = Cut-Away

Level I:
Mahogany or “A” Level Quality Spruce Top, Basic Quality Mahogany Sides, & Back Woods with Rosewood Bridge and Fret-Board w/Dot Inlays or No Inlays. Wood-Grained or Black Headstock w/”Guild” Chevron-Like Name Only or with the Chesterfield Logo at the Top.
Some Examples –
M-20 (Mahogany)
D-4 / DV-4 (Mahogany)
D-25 / DV-25 (Mahogany)
F-30 (Maple)
Mark 1M - Nylon String Classical (Mahogany)

Level II:
“AA” Quality Spruce Guitar Top with Mid-Level Sides and Back Quality Woods.
Rosewood Bridge and Fret-Board w/dot inlays or no inlays. Black or Wood-grained Narrow Headstock with only the name “Guild” or w/ Basic Chesterfield Logo Under the Name.
Some Examples –
F-20 (Maple and Mahogany)
D-30 / F-30 / F-30R / JF-30 (Maple) (Rosewood)(Mahogany?) (Taj Mahal, Mississippi John Hurt, & Richie Havens?)
D-40 / F-40 (Mahogany) (Richie Havens?)
F2-12 / F2-12XL (Mahogany) (John Denver & Judy Collins?)
D-50 ( Rosewood)
DV-52 / DV-62 (Rosewood) (w/Abalone Sound-Hole Rosette, Ebony Fret-Board & Bridge & Gold Grover Tuners) A Best Mid-Level Buy!
Mark 2 - Nylon String Classical (Mahogany)

Level III:
“AAA” Quality Spruce Top with Upper-Level Quality Sides and Back Woods with Ebony Bridge and Bound Fret-Board w/Arrowhead in Soap-Bar Inlays; Abalone Sound-Hole Rosette; Bound Black Wide Headstock w/”G-Shield Logo” & Gold Grover Tuners.
Some Examples –
F-50 (Maple and Rosewood) (Dave Van Ronk?)
D-55 / JF-55 (Rosewood) (Tom Smothers, Deana Carter, & Waylon Jennings John Denver?)
D-60 / JF-65 (Maple)
Mark 3 Nylon String Classical (Mahogany)
Mark 4 Nylon String Classical (Rosewood or Pearwood)
Mark 5 Nylon String Classical (Maple)
Mark 6 Nylon String Classical (Rosewood)

Level IV - Limited Editions - (Only About 200 made):
“AAA Feathered” (AAAA?) Quality Spruce Top with Top-Premium Quality Sides and Back Woods with Top Quality Ebony Bridge and Bound Fret-Board w/Special stone (Turquoise, Red Coral, etc.) Arrowhead in Soap-Bar, Arrowheads on Bridge, & Sound-Hole Rosette Inlays. Herringbone Top Edging. Black Wide with Multi-Layered Beveled Headstock Woods forming the Edging with Special Stone Inlay G-Shield Logo.”
Some Examples –
DV-72 / DV-73 (Rosewood)
Mark 7 Nylon String Classical (Made to Order) (Charlie Byrd?)

Level IV – Custom Shop - Nashville:
Top of the Line Almost Everything like the Limited Edition Series without the Special Stone Inlays. However, it has the Special “Cloud” Fret-Board Inlays and Abalone Top Edging and Sound-Hole Rosette.
Some Examples –
D-100 / JF-100 (Rosewood) (Hand-Carved Neck & Maple Bindings) (George Strait?)
F-40 Valencia (Maple) (Narrow “G” or “G-Shield” Headstock)
D-Deco (Narrow Chesterfield Headstock) (Johnny Cash?)
D-Finesse (Same as Deco, but with Under-Stated Wood-Grained Headstock, Dot Fret-Board w/Herringbone Top Edging and Sound-Hole Rosette.) (Paul Rodgers?)
F-30R-LS – Under-Stated Version Like the Finesse.


HoboKen's Dream Acoustic Guild Guitar Collection -
(only seven more guitars to go!)
D-100
DV-72
F-40 Valencia
D-55
D-60
JF-55-12
JF-65-12
DV-52
D-40
F-30 Aragone
JF-30
F2-12
Mark IV-R Classical

 

[Metalman]

Hoboken said:
"A" spruce top, medium-grade mahogany back & sides, rosewood dot fret board, chesterfield headstock, with a gloss nitro. finish.
(F-30R=rosewood back & sides, w/ebony fretboard)
(F-30R-LS="AAA" spruce top, rosewood back & sides, rosewood fretboard)
(F-30 Valencia="AAA" spruce top, top-grade maple back & sides, ebony deco inlay fretboard, top of the line deco headstock and fretboard inlay; with gloss nitro finsih.) "

Hoboken,
I'd say you got it right about the woods, and the characteristic sound they have. You certainly did your homework. Nice list of specs there.

Although, in the case of the F-30R, the top is "AA", not "A" as you suggest. I have one, as well as a F-30, with what appears to be a "A" spruce top. Looking at them both side to side, you can see the difference in the grain and quality.

Also, one (F-30R) is rosewood back and sides like you stated, and yes, the sound is very much bright and bassy, lots of lows (surprising for a small body guitar). The F-30, being solid mahogany back and sides, is somewhat trimmed of bass and treble, and ensues a real warm midrange sound. A little louder than the rosewood model. This is also helped by the arched back. '60's, '70's and late '90's and the current Tacoma-built models have a flat back, supported by braces.

Of, course, both of mine have a JLD Bridge system installed, which brings out more of the character of each guitar, much more so than without it.
What is your source of info, just wondering . . . besides the Guild Book by Hans, there is little out there.

 

[HoboKen]

Metalman,

You are right! Generally speaking, any Guild Guitar that has an ebony fret board, will have at least a "AA" grade top.

I used old Guild catalogs and my own Guild Guitar collection as references.

I figured I'd mess up at least one point somewhere at that time of the morning I did this and I know I can count on other Old Geezers to set me on the correct path of Guild truth and beauty. I'll wait 'till more speak up and add other models into their proper nitche in my starter list. Then I'll go back and put it all together in a retro to my initial list.

Hopefully this will help those new to Guild to understand from where we Old Guild Geezers (OGGs )are coming from. What really got me going on this was the new Guild "Valencia." ......a mere shadow of the original to hold that name.

HoboKen

 

[Metalman]

Metalman,

You are right! Generally speaking, any Guild Guitar that has an ebony fret board, will have at least a "AA" grade top.

I used old Guild catalogs and my own Guild Guitar collection as references.

HoboKen

By the way, all those guitars you listed in your first post - that isn't your "own Guild Guitar collection" is it? Wow; I think you got us ALL beat! :shock:

 

[john_kidder]

Great list. But:

M-20s:
Mahogany top, mahogany back & sides, rosewood dot fretboard, chesterfield headstock; with a satin finish.

I think the earlier M-20s had the plain "chevron-style" Guld logo only.

F-20?
And what about my favourites, the Gruhns?

 

[West R Lee]

Ken,

My D25M does not have the "Chesterfield" logo, it merely had the what I call the Guild wedge^, or Guild written in the wedge or angled shape.

West

 

[Russell Letson]

woods

Metalman--F30 with mahogany arched back? Wouldn't that be maple? And only up to 1959 or so. The only mahogany arched-back Guilds I know of are entry-level D models.

All: Where is this A-scale top grading coming from? I suppose the factories did pay attention to the quality of the wood, at least on premium models, but I don't recall Guild using that kind of language in their marketing.

In fact, that whole top-grading thing seems to be relatively recent--I never noticed it until small-shop builders started using it to distinguish their products from Martin and Gibson. When I started buying guitars (or wishing at them) in the 1960s, the important distinctions were size and appointments, with species and grade of wood somewhere down the list: you bought a dread or a "folk" box and it had snazzy stuff on the fingerboard and headstock or it didn't. If you were a real guitar expert, you knew the difference between rosewood and mahogany (especially if you were a bluegrasser fixated on the D-18/D-28 distinction), and that was about it.

 

[HoboKen]

The wood grading approach was told to me by Willie Fritscher, the Westerly, RI Shop Manager when I stopped by the Factory and he took me on a tour many years ago. Willie was the one who selected all the woods in the first place back then.

HoboKen

 

[Metalman]

Edited & Revised....Older Guild Acoustic Guitars In a Nutshell
(Let's Try It This Way.....From Old Guild Catalogs and HoboKen & Friends' Guild Collections)

“Rule of Tonewoods” – (Back and Sides):
Mahogany - Loud, Mellow, With a Great Mid-Range Response.
Maple- Bright, Brilliant, With a Jazzy Treble Response.
Rosewood- Loud, Deep, Smooth, With a Great Bass and Treble Response.

Spruce Tops- Graded from “A” to “AAA+.” The straighter & tighter the Grain, The Higher and Better the Rating!

Note: “All” are quality solid woods' USA made instruments……….Please remember, for every generality mentioned here, Guild probably had at one time or another, at least one exception in some way or another…..only Alfred Dronge, Willie Fritscher, and…..Hans…. know for sure?

"Guildese" -
D = Dreadnought
G = Another Prefix for "D" ?
F = Regular, More Traditional Guitar Body
JF = Jumbo F-Body
XL = Extra Large F-Body
HG = High Gloss
NT = Natural Top
V = Vintage Gloss Finish
R = Rosewood
M = Mahogany Top
MA = Maple
S = Spruce Top
LS = Long Scale

Level I:
Mahogany or “A” Level Quality Spruce Top, Basic Quality Mahogany Sides, & Back Woods with Rosewood Bridge and Fret-Board w/Dot Inlays or No Inlays. Wood-Grained or Black Headstock w/”Guild” Chevron-Like Name Only or with the Chesterfield Logo at the Top.
Some Examples –
M-20
D-4 / DV-4 (Mahogany)
D-25 / DV-25 (Mahogany)
Mark 1M - Nylon String Classical (Mahogany)

Level II:
“AA” Quality Spruce Guitar Top with Mid-Level Sides and Back Quality Woods.
Rosewood Bridge and Fret-Board w/dot inlays or no inlays. Black or Wood-grained Narrow Headstock with only the name “Guild” or w/ Basic Chesterfield Logo Under the Name.
Some Examples –
F-20 (Maple and Mahogany)
D-30 / F-30 / F-30R / JF-30 (Maple) (Rosewood) (Taj Mahal, Mississippi John Hurt, & Richie Havens?)
D-40 / F-40 (Mahogany) (Richie Havens?)
F2-12 / F2-12XL (Mahogany) (John Denver & Judy Collins?)
D-50 ( Rosewood)
DV-52 (Rosewood) (w/Abalone Sound-Hole Rosette, Ebony Fret-Board & Bridge & Gold Grover Tuners) A Best Mid-Level Buy!
Mark 2 - Nylon String Classical (Mahogany)

Level III:
“AAA” Quality Spruce Top with Upper-Level Quality Sides and Back Woods with Ebony Bridge and Bound Fret-Board w/Arrowhead in Soap-Bar Inlays; Abalone Sound-Hole Rosette; Bound Black Wide Headstock w/”G-Shield Logo” & Gold Grover Tuners.
Some Examples –
F-50 (Maple and Rosewood) (Dave Van Ronk?)
D-55 / JF-55 (Rosewood) (Tom Smothers, Deana Carter, & Waylon Jennings?)
D-60 / JF-65 (Maple)
Mark 3 Nylon String Classical (Mahogany)
Mark 4 Nylon String Classical (Rosewood)
Mark 5 Nylon String Classical (Maple)
Mark 6 Nylon String Classical (Rosewood)

Level IV - Limited Editions - (Only About 200 made):
“AAA Feathered” (AAAA?) Quality Spruce Top with Top-Premium Quality Sides and Back Woods with Top Quality Ebony Bridge and Bound Fret-Board w/Special stone (Turquoise, Red Coral, etc.) Arrowhead in Soap-Bar, Arrowheads on Bridge, & Sound-Hole Rosette Inlays. Herringbone Top Edging. Black Wide with Multi-Layered Beveled Headstock Woods forming the Edging with Special Stone Inlay G-Shield Logo.”
Some Examples –
DV-72 / DV-73 (Rosewood)
Mark 7 Nylon String Classical (Made to Order) (Charlie Byrd?)

Level IV – Custom Shop - Nashville:
Top of the Line Almost Everything like the Limited Edition Series without the Special Stone Inlays. However, it has the Special “Cloud” Fret-Board Inlays and Abalone Top Edging and Sound-Hole Rosette.
Some Examples –
D-100 / JF-100 (Rosewood) (Hand-Carved Neck & Maple Bindings) (George Strait?)
F-40 Valencia (Maple) (Narrow “G” or “G-Shield” Headstock)
D-Deco (Narrow Chesterfield Headstock) (Johnny Cash?)
D-Finesse (Same as Deco, but with Under-Stated Wood-Grained Headstock, Dot Fret-Board w/Herringbone Top Edging and Sound-Hole Rosette.) (Paul Rodgers?)
F-30R-LS – Under-Stated Version Like the Finesse.


HoboKen's Dream Acoustic Guild Guitar Collection -
(only seven more guitars to go!)
D-100
DV-72
F-40 Valencia
D-55
D-60
JF-55-12
JF-65-12
DV-52
D-40
F-30 Aragone
JF-30
F2-12
Mark IV Classical

Man, oh, man - you have serious GAS! You want all those? While I don't blame you - you can't possibly have a wife!!
Or maybe you do, and you have promised your honey that for every guitar you buy, you are going to get her something special, right?
Hm m m, let me see, do I have any on that list that I could unload on you . . .
Aw nuts, I guess not.

 

[Metalman]

Re: woods

Metalman--F30 with mahogany arched back? Wouldn't that be maple? And only up to 1959 or so. The only mahogany arched-back Guilds I know of are entry-level D models.

Russell,

It was Hans Moust that set me straight on the arched back F-30's. In 1979 or around 1980, Guild started making their F-30s with a mahogany laminated arched back. I have one and it has that type of back. You can tell by looking though the sound hole, and you will see the absence of braces. Of course, you can feel the back to confirm this.
And as far as the grading of the top, well, I know that the '99 F-30R has a AA top, acording to the Gallery magazine. My F-30 seems to have not as fancy grain on the top, so I can imagine it is an "A" top, but I could be wrong.
The important thing is how it sounds.
A while back, I played one of those "kit" guitars, supplied by Martin. This was when they first came out, around the early '80's. The grain on the top was so sparse, you could line up pencils in between the lines! The guitar had been assembled by the repair guys in the shop - real pros - and the guitar sounded fantastic!
The skill that goes into building a guitar has a lot to do in how an instrument is going to sound. A master can make a cardboard box sound fantastic.
Alright, that's a bit too far, but you all know what I mean.

 

[Russell Letson]

my aching arches

Ah, late 1970s--I pay no attention to Guilds that late, and I stand corrected. Seriously, I rarely find a 70s-80s model I like at all, so I've pretty much ignored those instruments. (Though oddly enough I did play some Corona Ds that struck me as having the old vibe. Go figure.)

 

[West R Lee]

My gosh, you guys are going to have to contract out to Hans to do portions of Volume II. :wink: Pretty good analysis guys. Great job.

West

 

[Jahn]

My 1965 F-30 has a flat mahoghany back with braces, and the top doesn't look very fine in the grain. If it's "Type II" I'll be happy with that!

 

[HoboKen]

Up-Dates and Refinements........
With more voices added.....this could go on for awhile!)

"Guildese"
AB = Antique Burst Finish
SB = Sun Burst Finish

Biggest factor in making a great guitar......The design of the Guitar itself!

Tonewoods
Each big tree, when cut and quarter-sawed, will have some of each grade of wood in it. The over-all Quality of Sound from an acoustic guitar is a direct result of:
1. The quality of the wood (tighter the grain, the better and more uniform the vibrations, i.e., the tighter and more focused the sound waves).
2. The Quality of the preparation and conditioning of the wood at the factory - the aging stages.
3. The skill of the Luthier in making the final cuts and shaping braces and panels and then fitting all of the pieces together in a clean, even, and solid glueing process. The cleaner the inside construction of a great design, the better the final product will yield volume & sustain.

The density of each type of tone-wood determines if the treble, mid-range, or bass sound waves and harmonics will be emphasised within the sound chamber of the guitar.


HoboKen

 

[Metalman]

Re: my aching arches

Ah, late 1970s--I pay no attention to Guilds that late, and I stand corrected. Seriously, I rarely find a 70s-80s model I like at all, so I've pretty much ignored those instruments. (Though oddly enough I did play some Corona Ds that struck me as having the old vibe. Go figure.)

Russell,
So you like the '50's and '60's Guilds over the latter ones, but find that some of the the Corona-built instruments you played are okay. Talk about two extremes!
I have yet to play a '60's Guild, just never seen one. Although I did get a sneak peek at Tom Chapin's F-30 one day. He is the brother of the late Harry Chapin. This was in 1980, so it had to be at least a mid-70. Nobody was around back stage at The Lamb's, and I picked it up and played it a bit. Sounded really nice. I liked it.

 

[Metalman]

Up-Dates and Refinements........
With more voices added.....this could go on for awhile!)


Biggest factor in making a great guitar......The design of the Guitar itself!

HoboKen

Hoboken,
Thanks for the useful information. You have confirmed several things I alway knew to be true about the construction of acoustic guitars. I am amazed at the whole process, sometimes more than the actual art of playing!
When I bought my D-50 in '82, a friend of mine, another guitar player who was in my band at the time, bought the same guitar, within months of mine. Same instrument, but the two sounded quite different. Oh, they sounded both like the D-50, but there was a different timbre between the two.
Another factor you left out: just what part of the tree was used for said construction of any given guitar. That will make a difference, for sure.

 

[Metalman]

Up-Dates and Refinements........
With more voices added.....this could go on for awhile!)


Biggest factor in making a great guitar......The design of the Guitar itself!

HoboKen

Hoboken,
Thanks for the useful information. You have confirmed several things I always knew to be true about the construction of acoustic guitars. I am amazed at the whole process, sometimes more than the actual art of playing!
When I bought my D-50 in '82, a friend of mine, another guitar player who was in my band at the time, bought the same guitar, within months of mine. Same instrument, but the two sounded quite different. Oh, they sounded both like the D-50, but there was a different timbre between the two.
Another factor you left out: just what part of the tree was used for said construction of any given guitar. That will make a difference, for sure.

 

[Russell Letson]

ancient Guilds and geezer preferences

I've been playing Guilds for just 40 years now--I bought my '65 D40 new in '67--and over the decades have owned a half-dozen and been able to play many, many examples of various vintages and styles. A classic Guild (particularly a D) has such a strong characteristic sound that I've been able to pick one out in a roomful of jammers. My own experience with the brand has been that after 1970 the construction formula started to change: finshes got thicker and I suspect that overall build got heavier.

At a show 15 years or so ago, I played a late-60s F47 that I loved immediately but I couldn't get the dealer to name a decent price (over $2K if I recall--way too much for the time). Across the room, Gruhn had a very clean early-70s example that sounded a bit closed-in, and I foolishly bought it for around a grand, thinking it would open up with some playing. It never did (it proved to be double-X braced, which means it might have been a 12-string body that got a 6-string neck), and I eventually sold it off. That was one data-point, and I paid a lot of attention thereafter and came to the conclusion that I offered in the earlier post. By the 80s, Guild's designs were shifting from the 60s formulas and the model designations were all over the place, and I just never played one I would have bought--and since I was (and still am) looking for an F-30 with the classic sound, I would have happily bought a new model that reproduced the old sound and playability. It never happened. But the few Corona Ds I had a chance to play sounded and felt right to me, and the new "revival" models that Fender is having built at the Tacoma factory look interesting. But I still think that nothing will quite match a mid-60s example, and they remain very rare--I've only played one or two in more than 20 years of looking. (A very reliable repair/restoration guy I talked to insists that the good-sounding ones were built too light and developed fatal structural problems, but my old D40 and M20 are both very sturdy as well as sweet.)

 

[john_kidder]

Re: ancient Guilds and geezer preferences

my old D40 and M20 are both very sturdy as well as sweet.)

My '57 M-20 is light and gentle and built like a rock. No motion in 50 years.

 

[Metalman]

Re: ancient Guilds and geezer preferences

I've been playing Guilds for just 40 years now--I bought my '65 D40 new in '67--and over the decades have owned a half-dozen and been able to play many, many examples of various vintages and styles. A classic Guild (particularly a D) has such a strong characteristic sound that I've been able to pick one out in a roomful of jammers. My own experience with the brand has been that after 1970 the construction formula started to change: finshes got thicker and I suspect that overall build got heavier.

At a show 15 years or so ago, I played a late-60s F47 that I loved immediately but I couldn't get the dealer to name a decent price (over $2K if I recall--way too much for the time). Across the room, Gruhn had a very clean early-70s example that sounded a bit closed-in, and I foolishly bought it for around a grand, thinking it would open up with some playing. It never did (it proved to be double-X braced, which means it might have been a 12-string body that got a 6-string neck), and I eventually sold it off. That was one data-point, and I paid a lot of attention thereafter and came to the conclusion that I offered in the earlier post. By the 80s, Guild's designs were shifting from the 60s formulas and the model designations were all over the place, and I just never played one I would have bought--and since I was (and still am) looking for an F-30 with the classic sound, I would have happily bought a new model that reproduced the old sound and playability. It never happened. But the few Corona Ds I had a chance to play sounded and felt right to me, and the new "revival" models that Fender is having built at the Tacoma factory look interesting. But I still think that nothing will quite match a mid-60s example, and they remain very rare--I've only played one or two in more than 20 years of looking. (A very reliable repair/restoration guy I talked to insists that the good-sounding ones were built too light and developed fatal structural problems, but my old D40 and M20 are both very sturdy as well as sweet.)

I spoke to Carlo Greco some time ago, and he informed me that around the late '70's, Guild started making their tops thicker. This could acount for some of the change in the sound that you described.

Guild is now building the new F-30 acording to the vintage standards, they say. I played it; didn't knock me out too much. Very brittle, but loud and bright. Was a loud guitar, but like I said, brittle. Maybe that's the way they are supposed to sound. I don't think so . . .