We really need an answer to this....

[Walter Broes]

I guess my point is that we've kowtowed to the Asian-built Guilds, talking them up as if they're something special

Well...there are a few Korean made electrics I like -for the low price- but I've never liked the made in China acoustics.

 

[GAD]

I think we're on the same page, GAD, Walter, mostly... Although I have to say that I disagree a bit that it has nothing to do with Asian manufacture... I.e., no one should be affixing bridges to the finished surface. Cheap guitars are not necessarily made cheaply.

I guess my point is that we've kowtowed to the Asian-built Guilds, talking them up as if they're something special, and then we find out this crap. Sorry, it really deflates me to see this. Any/all respect for the Asian-built Guilds just went out the window for me, as I find this whole matter indefensible.

Having said all that, the question of Guild on the headstock... We're on the same page of course... But, that is water that's way under the bridge.

Anyway, enough said as far as I'm concerned. I really appreciate that folks helped me/us determine the truth, ugly as it is.

Who's kowtowed? Also, when did you have any respect for Asian-built Guilds.

This is not an "Asian manufacture" problem. The Asian manufacturers are delivering what they're being paid to deliver. Iphones are made in China and they are top-notch electronics. I have no doubt that Guild could have Chinese sources making top-quality guitars: they would cost more. It's really that simple. Do you think that Guild doesn't know that shortcuts are being made in order to meet a price point? If they were selling these guitars at the price point of their US guitars then we'd have a scandal, but these are cheap guitars made to be cheap. There are only so many ways to make something cheaper: lower materials cost, lower labor cost, lower transportation costs, lower quality, etc. This is one of those "race to the bottom" things where if you want to compete then you make them cheap.

The real issue IMO is that they say Guild on them. If they said Maderia on them would you even care how they were made?

 

[chazmo]

Who's kowtowed? Also, when did you have any respect for Asian-built Guilds.

Hahaha. Well, I've tried to play along, GAD....

 

[SFIV1967]

The answer is "better than this!... FAR better than this!"

I'd say they shipped thousands of those guitars and a small number failed, not a big problem I would say. Or have you seen crying people on Instagram, Facebook and other guitar forums about it? Not me. It seems to be a kind of "standard production procedure" for mass production and it seems to save a lot of time and money in production.

Ralf

 

[Neal]

Wonder what effect that finish between the bridge and top has on tone?

 

[Default]

I'd say they shipped thousands of those guitars and a small number failed, not a big problem I would say. Or have you seen crying people on Instagram, Facebook and other guitar forums about it? Not me. It seems to be a kind of "standard production procedure" for mass production and it seems to save a lot of time and money in production.

Ralf

Since Fender's survey indicates that 99% of people who pick up a guitar quit, there are no stats on how many guitars under beds, or in the back of closets have failures like these. The phrase, "built to a price" applies here.

 

[Default]

"Sold to someone who is never going to play it."

 

[chazmo]

I'd say they shipped thousands of those guitars and a small number failed, not a big problem I would say. Or have you seen crying people on Instagram, Facebook and other guitar forums about it? Not me. It seems to be a kind of "standard production procedure" for mass production and it seems to save a lot of time and money in production.

Ralf

Ralf, not sure what that snide comment was about Instagram, but let's just say we'll agree to disagree here.

Have a great day, folks.

 

[davismanLV]

Although I have to say that I disagree a bit that it has nothing to do with Asian manufacture... I.e., no one should be affixing bridges to the finished surface. Cheap guitars are not necessarily made cheaply.

Once again, it comes down to cheap/inexpensive/corners cut types of production. Not sure "Asia" is to blame but just plain economics. This obviously happens but in this context, the number that do this is acceptable to the business model to produce a decent sounding and looking guitar at a SERIOUSLY low price. They can replace or repair (most likely replace) the few that self-destruct in this manner easily and save serious money by cutting out steps that cause the problem. This is an economic problem in the manufacture of these items. Cutting steps, saving money..... and ultimately making money. This is just the way it's set up. It's also a reason not to buy them. Or in many a case, a reason TO buy them, depending on what you've got to spend. It's down to $$.

 

[GAD]

Ralf, not sure what that snide comment was about Instagram, but let's just say we'll agree to disagree here.

Have a great day, folks.

I don’t see any snide. I believe his comment is basically what I was talking about in that the guitars aren’t failing and there aren’t any complaints (in numbers) to warrant a change in production.

 

[chazmo]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

I don’t see any snide.

Yeah, sorry, @SFIV1967 . It read a little off to me because I don't have any interest in social media and I don't make any comments based on it and have no motivations associated with it. But I see that Ralf was just defending the cost paradigm, which is obviously a valid argument.

Anyway, thanks again for all your feedback guys. This method of affixing a bridge to a guitar really disturbs me, obviously, and that's because the Guild name is on them. Not to revive that discussion since that ship sailed a long time ago.

 

[SFIV1967]

Yeah, sorry, @SFIV1967 .

All is fine, I was just saying that if there is a "problem" that the general public would see as "problem", the Guild sites on Instagram, Facebook or other guitar forums would be suddenly full of complaints. And there is nothing.
Look as example anytime Guild introduces a new models there are almost like automatic bots many "users" on Instagram and Facebook always complaining that no "left hand" model was offered. It doesn't matter if they actually would buy them but they have a certain "habit" of complaining about this every time. At least that is how I see it. (and it might be an unfair comparison). And here with the bridges I have not seen a lot of complaints at all.

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

Fender's survey indicates that 99% of people who pick up a guitar quit

Steve is that true?

 

[SFIV1967]

Steve is that true?

It actually was 90%. The study was pre-COVID in 2015:

"In 2015, we found more than 90 percent of first-time players abandoned guitar in 12 months – if not the first 90 days – but the 10 percent that didn't, tended to commit to the instrument for life and own multiple guitars and amps,..."

Guitar Isn't Dead: Research Shows Learning To Play Helps Us Live Better Lives

/PRNewswire/ -- Fender Musical Instruments Corporation (FMIC) today released new research led in conjunction with Egg Strategy™, detailing the vibrant, current...

www.prnewswire.com

90% of new guitarists abandon the instrument within a year, according to Fender

“We have a member retention issue,” says Fender CEO Andy Mooney

www.guitarworld.com

Case Study: How product management saved Fender guitars

There are no short cuts to product success. This case study shows how Fender guitars used solid product management work to discover and define a winning, modern product strategy.

jeffgothelf.com

Ralf

 

[chazmo]

It actually was 90%. The study was pre-COVID in 2015:

"In 2015, we found more than 90 percent of first-time players abandoned guitar in 12 months – if not the first 90 days – but the 10 percent that didn't, tended to commit to the instrument for life and own multiple guitars and amps,..."

Guitar Isn't Dead: Research Shows Learning To Play Helps Us Live Better Lives

/PRNewswire/ -- Fender Musical Instruments Corporation (FMIC) today released new research led in conjunction with Egg Strategy™, detailing the vibrant, current...

www.prnewswire.com

90% of new guitarists abandon the instrument within a year, according to Fender

“We have a member retention issue,” says Fender CEO Andy Mooney

www.guitarworld.com

Case Study: How product management saved Fender guitars

There are no short cuts to product success. This case study shows how Fender guitars used solid product management work to discover and define a winning, modern product strategy.

jeffgothelf.com

Ralf

Thanks, Ralf. 90% sounds about right to me...

This part is fascinating:

Finally, Mooney, did the math. The average lifetime value of a Fender customer is $10,000 in guitars, amps and accessories. With a million new guitar buyers each year in English-speaking countries alone and that pesky 90% abandonment rate, doubling retention to 20% to 200,000 committed players opens up a billion dollars of new revenue opportunity.

I'm going to guess that similar 90% abandonment numbers for most/all big music company vendors. At least for new buyers. Fender says 45% of their sales are to new folks which may very well be a unique "problem" for Fender. I don't know. Would sure be curious what Yamaha has found (if they've done any kind of research like that). I also wonder if any LTGers have used Fender Play or Fender Songs.
[/QUOTE]

 

[GAD]

Thanks, Ralf. 90% sounds about right to me...

This part is fascinating:


I'm going to guess that similar 90% abandonment numbers for most/all big music company vendors. At least for new buyers. Fender says 45% of their sales are to new folks which may very well be a unique "problem" for Fender. I don't know. Would sure be curious what Yamaha has found (if they've done any kind of research like that). I also wonder if any LTGers have used Fender Play or Fender Songs.

Talk to anyone who owns a small music store, or just look at their guitar inventory. Chances are it’s mostly Samick and the like because they can’t meet the big name minimum order numbers, but the salient point (and part if the reason they can’t meet bug sales numbers) is that the VAST number of customers are kids and first time players. I’d imagine that for every $2000 Strat a big shop sells they probably sell 100 $200 guitar-and-amp Squire combos and the majority of those are the months leading into Christmas.

Hell, go into a GC or Sam Ash and look at their inventory. It’s mostly low-level beginner stuff. The GC near me might have Maybe five expensive Les Pauls hung way up high. The GC in Union has a little room with probably 20-25. I have to go to NYC to see any nice vintage gear from a store.

I don’t think I’ve bought a factory new guitar from a store since ~2008. If I were to buy a new instrument it would probably be from Sweetwater, but much like cars I’ll probably never buy new again.

 

[Default]

Once again, it comes down to cheap/inexpensive/corners cut types of production. Not sure "Asia" is to blame but just plain economics. This obviously happens but in this context, the number that do this is acceptable to the business model to produce a decent sounding and looking guitar at a SERIOUSLY low price. They can replace or repair (most likely replace) the few that self-destruct in this manner easily and save serious money by cutting out steps that cause the problem. This is an economic problem in the manufacture of these items. Cutting steps, saving money..... and ultimately making money. This is just the way it's set up. It's also a reason not to buy them. Or in many a case, a reason TO buy them, depending on what you've got to spend. It's down to $$.

I can buy a crazy flamed mahogany neck for $35. Whatever I use it for, I'm not feeding money to anybody else but me. I can't guess how many people have to get paid before an import guitar gets to the store, and the factory may be paying $35 for the materials for the entire guitar.
I follow Texas Toast Guitars on YouTube, and you can buy a high end Fender, or, you can get one of their guitars for $1,500. They can afford to compete because they sell direct to the customer. Even with a cheap guitar, you are holding up an entire ecosystem.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

(Recall Hans's description of hide glue on bridges pulling up finish because the glue-to-finish bond was stronger than the finish-to-wood bond, so if that bond gives out then finish comes away from top.)

I sure don’t recall Hans saying that, but I have said something similar.

I have explained, many times, how bridges are typically glued on to soundboards, such as in this thread from Oct 12, 2021 titled, "nobody wants to work on a vintage Guild acoustic ???"

Congratulations.


For an inexperienced tech, it can definitely be challenging to address celluloid (plastic) that has first been attached directly to the underlying wood using solvent (lacquer, lacquer thinner), prior to the guitar being spray finished. The celluloid continues to flash off solvent over the years and is reduced in size. For headplates that typically translates to gaps showing around the edges and sometimes a little buckling. For pickguards affixed to soft Spruce it can be more serious. But Guild did not invent the technique. This is a common issue with instruments of the era.

Lifting bridges may or may not even need addressing. It all depends on what is causing the lift. It was/is common to spray the body, scrape away the finish where the bridge will be applied, and then glue the bridge down to raw wood, not finish (or vinyl sealer, shellac, etc). To create a clean appearance, it was/is common to restrict the scraping to an area that is inside the outermost dimensions of the bridge leaving a "border" of finish on which the outermost edge of the bridge rests. That "border" may be all of 1/32" or even 1/64" for a custom instrument, but that precision takes extra time to achieve. Your business card inserted between the bottom of the bridge and the lacquer on the soundboard should only slide in until it encounters the adhesive. I have seen borders as large as 1/4" on hand-assembled production line guitars. If the adhesive holds and that insertion distance does not increase over time, you may never need to address the lifting backside of the bridge. If the adhesive fails or the underlying wood fails (such as in the case of severe runout where the top literally tears loose), the issue would be serious and would need to be addressed. If the bridge is pulling up and away from what is probably a fairly wide border, so long as it is not due to brace failure (adhesive holding the soundboard to the X-brace, bridgeplate, tonebars, etc.) then there is little that can be done short of removing the bridge, increasing the area of raw wood exposure, and re-gluing the bridge. If it is needed, then it is needed. Glue typically doesn't bond well and/or may not stay well bonded to a lacquer finish, so a "bridge glue down" it is not necessarily a permanent solution. Most importantly, lifting bridges are not unique to Guild, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Neck resets on traditionally-constructed wooden acoustic guitars are relatively inevitable. Though this is largely dependent upon usage and environmental factors, it is true regardless of brand and neck attachment method. If you drive a vehicle hard, put many miles on it, subject it to excessive loads/extra weight, drive it in an area where environmental factors are a serious consideration, and/or simply own it long enough you will encounter "inevitable" costs.

Taylor techs offer a quick turnaround and relatively low price for neck resets, where the label is removed, the neck and fingerboard extension are un-bolted, two shims are added and everything is put back. As simple as that process may be when compared to a Martin or a Guild having a glued-on neck, Taylors still require neck resets.

The process of removing a glued-down fingerboard extension is the same for all acoustic guitars having glued-on necks. What appears to me to contribute to the mythology of "Guild neck resets are more difficult" is the lack of experience of the person doing the repair. What exacerbates some (very few) Guild neck resets is the amount of glue encountered. Historically, some dovetail joints had an unnecessary amount of glue applied (though this is not a Guild-only issue). Adhesive should only be applied to the side walls of a well-fitting dovetail tenon. Complicating matters, not-so-well-fitting dovetail joints may hold slightly more adhesive. Additionally, if extra glue squeezes back into the cavity between the end of the tenon and the mortise this will require a bit more attention to soften (I have only encountered one Guild to date that had this issue). Often overlooked is the fact that Guilds have a much wider neck heel than do Martins. Those heels are also glued to the sides, presenting a greater surface area of adhesive holding the neck on. Someone attempting a reset may have softened the glue in the dovetail joint but neglected the adhesive on the heel. The neck appears to be belligerent in its insistence on remaining in place. If a person who has reset one or more Martin necks encounters such a scenario, they may be prone to assume "Guild neck resets are more difficult."


Hmm... I am guessing that would depend upon the nature of the repair this person is conducting. Most repair issues and processes are shared between brands. But a bad experience or two coupled with some fear and superstition can all play a role in supporting statements like that.


That is a worthy pursuit. What are you waiting for?

Edit: As mentioned by members fronobulax and drc, above, having an experienced Guild repairman such as Tom Jacobs in Florida look your instrument over, let alone make the repairs, is highly advisable.

 

[adorshki]

It could be that the bridge is adhering to the finish fine, but the finish isn't adhering very well to the wood.

That's exactly what's going in those failures, as distinct from the ones where the bridge glue simply doesn't bond properly to the finish, for whatever reason.

 

[Christopher Cozad]

For a glued-on acoustic guitar bridges (excluding “floating” bridge designs), the bridge must be glued to the raw wood of the soundboard. It has never been acceptable to glue a bridge to the finish, regardless of the chemical composition of the finish. When constructed properly (wood is bonded to wood), if the glue fails, either the adhesive gets replaced (old/bad glue), or the technique gets adjusted (insufficient amount of glue applied, or clamps were too tight, starving the bond). Either way, the correction is easily made.

In the (rather bizarre) case where the finish is lifting off the surface of the wood, but the bridge remains securely fastened to the finish, the solution has nothing to do with the finish. Who cares if the glue held to the finish? A finish has yet to be developed that will withstand 150 to 200 pounds of tension trying to rip it off the surface of the wood. At issue is the fact that proper construction methodology was not followed (or was deliberately ignored). I repeat, the bridge must be glued to the raw wood of the soundboard. When built correctly, the incident never occurs.

If the finish is applied prior to attaching the bridge, the finish must be removed from the bridge footprint (by scraping, sanding or routing). To not do so is a clear indication of either ignorance (“Nobody told me. Now that I know, I’ll do it right.”) or laziness/greed (“It takes too long, and time is money.”). The result for the consumer is the same: the bridge will come off, eventually.