We really need an answer to this....

[chazmo]

Guys, we were discussing a bridge separation in the thread below and I decided to start a new thread... IMO, we need an answer to this before further discussion of what's going on here with the Asian-made acoustics, and whether it's "acceptable" or not. Well, let's just say I need to know, at least. . See the original discussion below in the link...

So, what's the deal? Are (or are not) the Asian manufacturers gluing the bridges onto the guitars right on top of the poly finish(es) they use? In other words, do they (or do they not) prep/strip the surface of finished soundboards before applying the bridge to the guitar. I don't think any US built Guild acoustic has ever been built this way; finish has always been stripped (or taped off in the paint booth) to provide a bare wood surface for the joint, but then we're talking apples and oranges with US built guitars being (mostly) NCL-finished.

For the record, Joining a block of rosewood to a finished surface (for a guitar, that is) with glue sounds like pure folly to me. And, if I'm wrong, how do you remove said bridge(s) to do replacements of fixes eventually?

Ralf, are you saying the all these GADs/100s/Westerly series (primarily MIC) acoustics are made like this? With the bridge just glued right to the finished top????

I wouldn't say all as I simply don't know, but rosewood bridges glued with CA to the poly top is common in China factories. Actually a rosewood bridge to a poly finish has a strong bond using CA!

Can't say what the glue was in the example above, also we don't know where that picture is from as GG didn't provide a link to further look.

I remember for instance this example, guess why the poly finish was pulling away...


Ralf

The finish is pulling away from the top under the bridge of my Westerly D-1212.

I figure I need to cut through the finish next to the bridge and attempt to glue down the finish before pulling the bridge off so more finish does not pull up in the process of repair. I'm a watchmaker, so have the skills and tools to do a decent job of this. I figure a modified Exacto knife or...

letstalkguild.com

 

[adorshki]

Frankly I'd be surprised if they bothered to either mask the bridge pad before finishing OR ermove finish before gluing bridge. Both represent some delicate labor and measuring (read: labor cost goes up, and we know that's the most expensive cost in guitar construction).

How do they get away with it? It appears from photos in that thread that a poly finish (or at least that poly finish) has a stronger bond to wood than traditional NCL. (Recall Hans's description of hide glue on bridges pulling up finish because the glue-to-finish bond was stronger than the finish-to-wood bond, so if that bond gives out then finish comes away from top.)

If the bond of the poly finish to the wood is stronger than the bond of the bridge's glue to the finish, then the bridge will come loose from the finish before the finish comes loose from the guitar.

From a repair standpoint that's probably more desirable than other potential failure modes.
I was surprised to hear Ralf mention they actually use CA glues for bridges. I would have expected that to b overkill, but it's probably chea and 99.55 % reliable.

I still think the failure in the earlier thread was a result of either (Titebond type) glue being exposed to heat, or something about a batch of CA glue wasn't up to snuff. Maybe simply applied incorrectly, maybe contaminated with air or got dried out too much before joining?

@davismanLV : Thats what I was getting at in the other thread, that the finish may be at last partly responsible for the issue.

 

[chazmo]

Well, to be clear, I really hope that's not what they're doing, @adorshki . Bonding anything to a finished surface is probably OK if you're not going to put stress on the glue joint... but a guitar bridge glued to a polyester finish (as opposed to raw wood)?? I'm just not buying that it's gonna hold up to the stress.

 

[chazmo]

sorry, polyurethane... as in Westerly series finish.

 

[adorshki]

sorry, polyurethane... as in Westerly series finish.

The urethane is the notoriously thick/hard stuff, which was why it was popular for furniture in the '70's. I'm surprised it's not polyester, which can be sprayed thinner for one thing, but just checked Guild's site and you're right.

I'm just going with Ralf's statement though (using CA glue to glue bridges to poly finishes). If anybody here should know he should.

 

[chazmo]

The urethane is the notoriously thick/hard stuff, which was why it was popular for furniture in the '70's. I'm surprised it's not polyester, which can be sprayed thinner for one thing, but just checked Guild's site and you're right.

I'm just going with Ralf's statement though (using CA glue to glue bridges to poly finishes). If anybody here should know he should.

Well, anyway, I really hope we do get an answer to this at some point. I would like to wash that taste of vomit out of my mouth.

I'm probably being a little overdramatic about this, but I'm in good company. Funny story... Bob Taylor toured the New Hartford facility at one point before one of our LMG events, and apparently he kind of lost his mind when he saw how Guilds were going through final assembly and getting their bridges attached. I don't remember what I was told that his objection was, but apparently it was a big one. Maybe, somehow it's related to the way they're glued or placed. Taylor has been using UV catalyzed polyester for many years now, and I think Bob's view of guitar finishing is a lot different than Guild's traditional methods.

I guess it's good that people are passionate about these details. Guitar finish and neck joinery seem to be very hot topics for some of us. The truth is that I don't want to buy / own something that's made with inferior methods. I guess that's what lies underneath it all.

 

[Default]

SolarRez is a guitar finish that I'm going to play around with, once the weather gets warmer. You paint it on, take it out in the noonday sun, and it cures in three minutes. Like, cured, sandable, in three minutes.

 

[Default]

Here's my dining room table project. It's finished with Crystalac products, which are non-toxic, water-based products with zero smell. Now, it's just a learning project, so, mistakes were made. I'm padding it on, but I probably will end up getting a small airbrush to apply it.

I will need a respirator, because of the aerosols, but it is not toxic, like lacquer or some other finishes. I can see it's the future, because I can spray a new coat every two hours, and it doesn't have to cure for a month or six weeks. To be sure, there's a learning curve, and some of the YouTube videos are... Not what I have experienced, but once I get a couple projects done with it, I'll be in the groove.

I thought I had some buffing compound around here, but I didn't, so I, uh, used a bit of soft scrub. Getting buffing compound tomorrow, but I just wanted to see.
It buffed out nicely, considering that I was using a cleaning product and hand buffing.

 

[BradHK]

Here's my dining room table project.

Guitar shaped dining room table with f-holes and holes for volume and tone knobs? I need more pics!

 

[Default]

My equivalent of a crossword puzzle. A Chibson kit guitar.

 

[BradHK]

My equivalent of a crossword puzzle. A Chibson kit guitar.

I completely misunderstood. I thought the project was a dining room table shaped like a guitar rather than the project being a guitar built on top of your dining room table! Completely different!

 

[adorshki]

Well, anyway, I really hope we do get an answer to this at some point. I would like to wash that taste of vomit out of my mouth.

I'm probably being a little overdramatic about this, but I'm in good company. Funny story... Bob Taylor toured the New Hartford facility at one point before one of our LMG events, and apparently he kind of lost his mind when he saw how Guilds were going through final assembly and getting their bridges attached. I don't remember what I was told that his objection was, but apparently it was a big one. Maybe, somehow it's related to the way they're glued or placed. Taylor has been using UV catalyzed polyester for many years now, and I think Bob's view of guitar finishing is a lot different than Guild's traditional methods.

I guess it's good that people are passionate about these details. Guitar finish and neck joinery seem to be very hot topics for some of us. The truth is that I don't want to buy / own something that's made with inferior methods. I guess that's what lies underneath it all.

There are those of us who believe those specific details do have an effect on "tone".

 

[adorshki]

Here's my dining room table project. It's finished with Crystalac products, which are non-toxic, water-based products with zero smell. Now, it's just a learning project, so, mistakes were made. I'm padding it on, but I probably will end up getting a small airbrush to apply it.

I will need a respirator, because of the aerosols, but it is not toxic, like lacquer or some other finishes. I can see it's the future, because I can spray a new coat every two hours, and it doesn't have to cure for a month or six weeks. To be sure, there's a learning curve, and some of the YouTube videos are... Not what I have experienced, but once I get a couple projects done with it, I'll be in the groove.

I thought I had some buffing compound around here, but I didn't, so I, uh, used a bit of soft scrub. Getting buffing compound tomorrow, but I just wanted to see.
It buffed out nicely, considering that I was using a cleaning product and hand buffing.

Actually has almost a french polish look right now, before final buffing.

 

[hansmoust]

(Recall Hans's description of hide glue on bridges pulling up finish because the glue-to-finish bond was stronger than the finish-to-wood bond, so if that bond gives out then finish comes away from top.)

Hmmmm ........ show me where I stated that!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

 

[chazmo]

Here's my dining room table project. It's finished with Crystalac products, which are non-toxic, water-based products with zero smell. Now, it's just a learning project, so, mistakes were made. I'm padding it on, but I probably will end up getting a small airbrush to apply it.

I will need a respirator, because of the aerosols, but it is not toxic, like lacquer or some other finishes. I can see it's the future, because I can spray a new coat every two hours, and it doesn't have to cure for a month or six weeks. To be sure, there's a learning curve, and some of the YouTube videos are... Not what I have experienced, but once I get a couple projects done with it, I'll be in the groove.

I thought I had some buffing compound around here, but I didn't, so I, uh, used a bit of soft scrub. Getting buffing compound tomorrow, but I just wanted to see.
It buffed out nicely, considering that I was using a cleaning product and hand buffing.

Looking good, Steve!!!!

 

[adorshki]

Hmmmm ........ show me where I stated that!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

Well, just spent 10 minutes doing a google search of the site, but didn't find the specific one.
It was about bridge lift at the back of some bridges. You explained how bridges were glued on after finishing, and an area of the topwas left bare to get wood-wood bond with the bridge That are was normally a bit smaller than the outline of the bridge itself.

If some of the glue squeezed out into the area that was finished, then it was bonded to finish, not wood. Under stress the bridge could pull up finish at the edge particularly at the back.

I did find refernce to the concept by jazzmang in post #2 here:
https://letstalkguild.com/ltg/index.php?threads/d55-bridge-lifting-say-it-aint-so-joe.158542/

I tried not to be so wordy in that first reference, but I may have given the wrong impression? Thanks for your patience.

 

[Walter Broes]

Guys, we were discussing a bridge separation in the thread below and I decided to start a new thread... IMO, we need an answer to this before further discussion of what's going on here with the Asian-made acoustics, and whether it's "acceptable" or not. Well, let's just say I need to know, at least.

well...you know I work at a guitar shop part time, and we have a repair guy, right?

You see a lot of different made in China guitars with a lot of different brand names that are built wrong, steels strings and nylon strings. Bridges working loose - a lot of them because they're glued straight onto the finish, bridge plates and X-braces that are not located where they're supposed to be, extremely overset necks with saddles so tall they tilt, etc.....
The Chinese -made Guilds are no better or worse than a lot of them. The best thing I can say about them is that the fret work seems to be a little better than average maybe?
I can't honestly say I've played on that I really liked. A lot of them have hard, glassy highs and some tubby lows, and very little of the musical midrange we all crave.

Eastman came up on a different thread - and I agree they're producing guitars in China that are a lot better than average MIC. They usually sound like you'd expect/hope the model/size/specs to sound. You see the odd one with a weird neck angle, but they're exceptions.

 

[chazmo]

well...you know I work at a guitar shop part time, and we have a repair guy, right?

Hope all's well at the shop, Walter!

Does the repair guy have an opinion or any knowledge of how MIC acoustic Guilds are made? Has he done a lot of bridge repairs on them?

The Chinese -made Guilds are no better or worse than a lot of them.

I think the question I'm asking, Walter, is whether all the bridges are glued to the polyurethane finished tops. I.e., is this a de facto standard approach to guitar building for MIC Guilds.

 

[Walter Broes]

Thanks, shop is doing OK. I don't have an answer to the "does Guild stick bridges on top of the finish" question - I've seen an older GAD jumbo with a bridge pulling up, and that seemed to have finish under it - but I haven't seen enough of them to really know.
A recurring problem with MIC acoustic Guilds is premature bellying behind the bridge, particularly the jumbos. We've even sent an unsold one back. It spent maybe two months in the shop unsold, and by that time it had a belly, and the top was warping in a strange way, you could see the outline of the bracing through the top.

 

[SFIV1967]

I think the question I'm asking, ...is whether all the bridges are glued to the polyurethane finished tops. I.e., is this a de facto standard approach to guitar building for MIC Guilds.

Some Asian guitars are built like this as it saves a lot of time in the process, either using CA or Epoxy. But I don't think about this as a standard in Asia. And regarding Guilds I simply don't know except some pictures. @GGJaguar still did not say where he found this picture in his post #1 in the other thread so we don't know anything about the history of that guitar.
Ralf