F65CE-RR - Not off to a good start

GuildFS4612CE

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No, that's not an intonated saddle...not even close...I don't have enough access now to look up a pic, but they were very obvious.

In addition, there were issues with the early USTs under those wide saddles...someone from the factory explained that the jigs didn't cut the slots properly...they were not level, leading to other problems.

Moot point with Gary's guitar which obviously at the very least requires a neck reset.

I hope Gary gets his money back...or at least enough of it to have Fix It...well, fix it...a shame to have a beautiful instrument like that die.
 

GAD

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No, that's not an intonated saddle...not even close...I don't have enough access now to look up a pic, but they were very obvious.

In addition, there were issues with the early USTs under those wide saddles...someone from the factory explained that the jigs didn't cut the slots properly...they were not level, leading to other problems.

Moot point with Gary's guitar which obviously at the very least requires a neck reset.

I hope Gary gets his money back...or at least enough of it to have Fix It...well, fix it...a shame to have a beautiful instrument like that die.

I don't let beautiful guitars die, so even if I don't get my money back it will get fixed.

I need to take some good pictures of it because it's so damn pretty.
 

GAD

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I at this point, must stand by my original statements regarding the saddle. I would really like to know if the guitar actually plays in tune or not. If GAD keeps it, it might be interesting to see what something like a Peterson Strobe tuner (or any tuner with that type of accuracy) says.

It sounds great on open chords. :cool:

With all six strings tuned to the harmonic with my Peterson Strobo-tuner app, all six strings are sharp at the 12th fret, but I can't say how much of that is caused by the excessively high action. It doesn't seem like the B/E strings are more/less sharp than the other strings, but I'm not sure the current geometry of the guitar lends itself to critical examination of intonation issues.
 

Westerly Wood

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Yeah. Gary that’s ridiculously high action. I’d be livid.
 

Bonneville88

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Guild UST saddle image dump - various models, and an F45
with a similar diving fretboard extension.



_MG_8764.JPG


_MG_8761.JPG

IMG_6462.JPG
IMG_0209.jpg
IMG_0191.jpg
IMG_1654.JPG
 

wileypickett

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I can't recall seeing a saddle like that on the dozens of Guilds I've owned over the years, but with so many examples on view I stand corrected. (Thanks for teaching me a thing or two!)

With the action as high as it is on your guitar it would be unusual if the notes at the 12th fret WEREN'T sharp compared to the 12th fret harmonics. The farther down you have to press the strings, the sharper the pitch will be.

I recall someone here once noting that the need for neck resets seems to occur sooner on guitars with cutaways than without. Is there any concensus on that?
 

F312

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Many years ago I had a Guild with a wide saddle like this. I forgot the model #, anyway, after having some work finished up on it I told my luthier it was way off intonation-wise. He played it for a minute, removed the saddle and put it on the wheel, and ever so slightly adjusted the pitch on top, The intonation was right on after that.
 

Christopher Cozad

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I recall someone here once noting that the need for neck resets seems to occur sooner on guitars with cutaways than without. Is there any concensus on that?
Ooh... Interesting question. I wonder if there's any validity to that... @Christopher Cozad any comment?
Consensus? That would be a pleasant thing to behold.

Short version: My experience suggests that to be the case, but there are many, many others out there sharing their experiences that do not agree.

Lengthy version: Most players have no real need to gain more than a casual understanding of the factors that contribute to the need for a neck reset. Nor should they, ideally. But traditional acoustic guitar construction has never (not yet, anyway) actually eliminated the problem, so many guitar owners end up learning more about neck resets than they probably ever wanted to. It is a hit and miss issue; some guitars need it and others seem to not need it. And there are little (read: no) metrics that are tracking that, so it is assumed, but unproven, that there are many guitars out there that need a neck reset but their respective owners don't know, don't care, etc. They never make it onto anyone's bench, so they don't get counted.

The upper bout of the traditionally-built (X-braced, center soundhole) wooden acoustic guitar has been demonstrated to work really well for low tension strings. The potential for things to go wrong with this design rises as the string tension increases. The addition of the transverse brace and the fingerboard/fretboard patch (common in most modern steel string guitars) were afterthoughts applied to help with (solve? reduce?) the potential for the neck to plough forward into the body cavity. Unfortunately, these so-called solutions have proven to not be solutions at all (necks still shift forward).

I have only encountered one Guild 12 string in umpteen Guild guitars I have owned, repaired or overhauled over the years that did not have at least one soundboard split along the fretboard, where the soundboard sheared forward, protruding into the soundhole. And that doesn't account for all the other brands that suffer from the same problem. So much for the bracing solution.

I am fairly convinced that, if owned long enough, most any wooden factory-built guitar will eventually need a neck reset regardless of brand, regardless of neck joint style. For example have a Taylor I purchased brand new a few years back that desperately required a neck reset after only one (1) year. By contrast, I have a 40 plus year-old T. Haruo 12 string that is only just at that place where I know a neck reset will be necessary.

Then some smarty-pants came along and, wanting to make it easier to play screaming shredder leads on an acoustic, whacked out a whole section of the upper bout, and called it a Cut-a-way! No changes were ever made to the neck block, kerfing, sides, or soundboard to accommodate the loss of yet more critical structure. It is relatively straightforward to identify the loss of structure with the increased incidence of neck block shifts (the common cause of soundboard shears and the need for neck resets). If you disassemble these instruments, you can readily see the issues (with perhaps a little nudge from someone in the know).

If you haven't already seen it, here is a link to an article still in progress, documenting a Guild 12 string I am currently rebuilding. This is not a cutaway model, but I spend some time addressing what I have discovered to be an improvement toward eliminating neck block shifts and any further need for a neck reset. It might further help to explain things or add some insight:

1999 Guild JF65-12 Overhaul
 
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Christopher Cozad

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Regarding acoustic guitar saddles: We "compensate" (adjust) for "intonation" (pitch) issues introduced as a result of both using differing diameter strings as well as something called "temperament."

Temperament is an adjusted system for determining the pitch of a note or set of notes that we hear, adjusted from perfect intervals between octaves. This is governed by the placement of the frets. Why not simply fret a guitar to play perfect intervals? I will defer answering that question, as numerous books have been written on the topic explaining why it is theoretically impossible. What *is* possible is to fret, setup and tune most any guitar to play perfectly (or near perfectly) in pitch up and down the fretboard (with no sharps or flats) SO LONG AS you stay in only one key, the key originally used to determine the precise position of the frets. The moment you change key, whether chording or fretting individual notes, you (hopefully) realize your guitar is woefully out of tune.

Our guitars are typically fretted using what is called "equal temperament" or "tempered tuning." It is so named as the octave is divided into 12 equal "semi-tones." This is not representative of the real world harmonics, but is a mathematical model, a compromise that essentially results in all notes played being equally out of tune, regardless of key. How far out of tune all keys equally play is mitigated at the saddle (or the saddle and nut) by employing compensation.

Compensating for string diameter is controlled by angling the saddle slot further away from the nut on the "bass" side (the larger diameter strings). If a saddle slot was routed to be perpendicular to the centerline of the neck, at best all but the 1st string of the guitar would play horribly out of tune, even more noticeable when fretting the the larger diameter strings.

As Kostask pointed out, compensating for temperament is controlled by individually adjusting each string atop the saddle. The intonation of a given string may be controlled by shortening or lengthening its individual "scale length" (the distance from the front edge of the nut to the point where the strings crests the saddle). Below is a commonly used/seen pattern of a "compensated saddle":

CompensatedSaddle.jpg

The goal is to setup a guitar such that the notes do not stray more out of tune as you play up (and/or down) the neck. The saddle in GAD's photo in this thread will not be assisting him in achieving that goal.
 

walrus

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Great reply, Chris, thanks! So even though I have a cutaway F-30, the fact that I am using lower tension strings than normal (.11's vs. .12's) is "good" in regard to a potential future neck reset?

walrus
 

adorshki

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No, that's not an intonated saddle...not even close...I don't have enough access now to look up a pic, but they were very obvious.
If that was in reply to my comment auit teh compensated saddel I saw, no, I didn't mean to imply this one in the F65ce is, never saw a '65ce with a compensated saddle, but I may have "mis-rememebred" what guitar it appeared on, could it have been an FS46ce?


In addition, there were issues with the early USTs under those wide saddles...someone from the factory explained that the jigs didn't cut the slots properly...they were not level, leading to other problems.
And I suspect they had to use that slot width to accommodate the UST at all, don't think I made that clear earlier.

Moot point with Gary's guitar which obviously at the very least requires a neck reset.
Right, 2 different issues, but at least Gary now knows his saddle is most likely "unmodified".
 

adorshki

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Great reply, Chris, thanks! So even though I have a cutaway F-30, the fact that I am using lower tension strings than normal (.11's vs. .12's) is "good" in regard to a potential future neck reset?

walrus
That's always with apologies for butt-inski, that's always the case whether it's got a cutaway or not.
 

GAD

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Let's keep the discussion about the guitar please (saddles, etc. are fine), and not my personal finances, reverb history, and other oddities that have bubbled up in this thread. Thanks.

To that end, here are some pics. I figure it's sitting here, so why not.

Oh, and I think I forgot to mention that the guitar smells like smoke. It's actually slight (and for me to say that, it's VERY slight), but it's there when i first take it out of the case.

5D3_6959_1600.jpg

5D3_6963_1600.jpg

5D3_6968_1600.jpg

5D3_6969_1600.jpg
 

Christopher Cozad

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Great reply, Chris, thanks! So even though I have a cutaway F-30, the fact that I am using lower tension strings than normal (.11's vs. .12's) is "good" in regard to a potential future neck reset?

walrus
So long as you do not feel you are sacrificing significant volume and/or tone... Lower string tension (as opposed to higher string tension) certainly helps mitigate the risk. Sadly, there is no guarantee, and a good neck reset might be just what a body needs.

Cutaway or no, some guitars need more string tension to "drive the top", meaning more "umph" is needed to set the bridge in motion and excite soundwaves across the soundboard. That is why some players claim that using medium gauge strings (or sometimes even heavy gauge) makes their guitar sound better (or using light gauge produces better results than ultra-light, etc). It is possible that a particular player needs or wants more than their guitar is able to produce. But this scenario could also be the result of a builder over-bracing a guitar, or selecting too light a bridge for a given guitar.

It is often encountered after shaving a bridge (or shaving "too much") from a bridge. The bridge is an external brace across the soundboard. Its mass (weight, dimensions, characteristics) has a direct impact on the guitar's ability to produce sound. Too much "bridge" and you experience the "rubber band stretched across the 2 x 4 (dimensional lumber)" effect, where the guitar is muffled, muted or sonically listless no matter how hard you scrub the strings, as you are never able to excite the top. Too little bridge (such as can occur after shaving a bridge) will necessitate over-compensating by using higher tension strings in order to achieve the output you used to get (back when you really loved the sound of your guitar).
 
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