F65CE-RR - Not off to a good start

[adorshki]

In your top picture it looks to me like the saddle is upside-down....but the saddle itself should conform to the radius of the fingerboard, and the top of the saddle (the part the strings pass over) should be rounded, not flat, as it appears to be in that picture.

Holy crap.
I’m too dumb to own acoustics, though I’ve done something similar.

No mine's like that too, the ramp is pretty shallow and flat but it's there and the strings lie flat across it.

Never really noticed until you mentioned it, but my D40's got a UST and it's cut the same way, so I suspect it's to get better transmission of string energy to the UST.

They're also both almost twice as wide as the saddle on the D25 which does have a slightly more rounded ramp (although it's a replacement from the last re-fret job); I suspect it's because the Fishman UST's come in 2 widths so they had to adjust saddle width to match the UST.

And suspect the pic makes it look "flat" when it actually is slightly ramped and that the profile curvature simply isn't that readily visible in the pic angle.

 

[GAD]

No mine's like that too, the ramp is pretty shallow and flat but it's there and the strings lie flat across it.

Never really noticed until you mentioned it, but my D40's got a UST and it's cut the same way, so I suspect it's to get better transmission of string energy to the UST.

They're also both almost twice as wide as the saddle on the D25 which does have a slightly more rounded ramp (although it's a replacement from the last re-fret job); I suspect it's because the Fishman UST's come in 2 widths so they had to adjust saddle width to match the UST.

And suspect the pic makes it look "flat" when it actually is slightly ramped and that the profile curvature simply isn't that readily visible in the pic angle.

He's right! It's a very weird saddle. I feel better now.

 

[wileypickett]

No mine's like that too, the ramp is pretty shallow and flat but it's there and the strings lie flat across it.

Never really noticed until you mentioned it, but my D40's got a UST and it's cut the same way, so I suspect it's to get better transmission of string energy to the UST.

They're also both almost twice as wide as the saddle on the D25 which does have a slightly more rounded ramp (although it's a replacement from the last re-fret job); I suspect it's because the Fishman UST's come in 2 widths so they had to adjust saddle width to match the UST.

And suspect the pic makes it look "flat" when it actually is slightly ramped and that the profile curvature simply isn't that readily visible in the pic angle.

There are other clues that it's upside-down, but I won't belabor the point. It's easy enough to figure out.

 

[Rayk]

Here's the box it came in. You know what instills confidence when I receive a $2000 guitar? A box sealed with painter's tape. Why is the box so big? That's a great question.




Let's see what's inside! Surely it's filled to the brim with peanuts, right? I mean, that's what I expected. As it turns out, peanuts would have been welcome. I've moved nothing - I opened the box and took this pic:




Hey, at least it was easy to get out. Then I noticed the case, which appears to be covered with a light misting of... honestly I'm not sure. Metalic gold spray paint?




The guitar is pretty, though:



Well, it's pretty from a distance. There are no major dings, but it's quite obviously sat out of the case for most of its life. It's very sort of... used looking with scuffs and just an overall sense of having been handled a lot. Plus the handwritten note in the case says to "not leave it in the sunlight or in the case in the summer...". It's also clearly not been played in probably years. The high E string is broken but still attached, the strings feel like they're from 2005, it's kind of dusty, the frets are like sandpaper, and the fretboard is very thirsty.

I'd venture a guess that at one time it was well loved and mostly well cared for given the fact that there are no dings, but it's been neglected for a few years and needs some love.

And there's also this:



The neck is fairly straight except for a dropoff near the soundhole, which is slight but there.

I'm kind of torn. On the one hand It plays OK especially in the cowboy chord frets, and we'll see how it does with a cleanup and some new strings, but it wasn't cheap for a guitar that will need a reset soon. But then it's an uncommon guitar in a rare configuration so...

Drop off at the sound hole depending could be normal . Your not using that to gauge neck angle are you ?

 

[HeyMikey]

Drop off at the sound hole depending could be normal . Your not using that to gauge neck angle are you ?

Exactly. A one foot ruler won’t suffice because of drop off. You need a 2+ foot straight edge. A piece of bar metal or a perfectly flat 1x2 piece of wood will work.

 

[beecee]

looks like a 24" to me......

 

[adorshki]

There are other clues that it's upside-down, but I won't belabor the point. It's easy enough to figure out.

Wiley I respect your opinions greatly, but I'm not seeing it in this case.

If you mean because of the way the edges look so sharp, no, both of my UST saddles are like that too, and on a 27" screen I can see the the saddle does appear to have a slight profile curvature and ramp. The ramp matches the break angle of the strings perfectly.

The treble side does look kind of high but can't really tell if that's due to camera lens/angle.

Like you said, easy enough to confirm, for example, just loosening strings might allow one to rock the saddle end-to-end in its slot if the profiled side is in fact in the slot. But it's a pretty tight fit, may not rock easily. Also for that reason it's hard for me to imagine a casual owner removing it and one would think if a professional did it they'd be sure to re-seat it properly.

It's probably academic if Gary winds up being able to return the guitar, but there might be some folks who'd benefit from knowing the answer

Also, there's precedence for unusual saddle configurations in those F-series guitars:
A few years ago we saw an early '90's (Maybe late '80's?) F45ce, this model's predecessor, with a wide and compensated saddle.

Having never seen a compensated saddle on a Westerly flat-top before, I was sure it was a replacement but Jane (GuildFS4612CE) explained it was in fact original and was used to help ensure good intonation on those early builds.

So apparently they paid a lot of attention to saddles on those UST equipped guitars.

 

[GAD]

I'll remove the saddle and take pictures.

Seller denied the refund, which I expected.

The reverb support@ email address no longer works. You have to go through chat. Didn't try the phone so no idea if that works.

We'll see what happens. I paid with Apple Pay so I'm guessing they're going to refer me to them if they can't resolve with the seller.

Edit: Apple Pay does not offer Buyer Protection, so it would be up to the CC if Reverb can't help.

 

[F312]

Gary, I know you buy a lot of guitars. How is your track record at Reverb? If you haven't sent any back, that would/should play a role in your favor. On the same token, if it doesn't go your way, and you got a deal on the guitar, a neck reset would be a lasting charm for such an identifiable guitar.

 

[GAD]

Gary, I know you buy a lot of guitars. How is your track record at Reverb? If you haven't sent any back, that would/should play a role in your favor. On the same token, if it doesn't go your way, and you got a deal on the guitar, a neck reset would be a lasting charm for such an identifiable guitar.

Bought and sold hundreds. Had an issue with maybe three.

If I’d gotten a deal I wouldn’t have requested a refund.

 

[cutrofiano]

Bought and sold hundreds.

= commercial.

 

[F312]

Bought and sold hundreds. Had an issue with maybe three.

If I’d gotten a deal I wouldn’t have requested a refund.

I think the odds are in your favor, especially with your gift of gab.

 

[GAD]

= commercial.

Wrong

 

[GAD]

Reverb wanted more pics.

 

[GAD]

Here's the saddle:

 

[adorshki]

Here's the saddle:

'at's what I'm talkin' bout, string wear on ramped top clearly visible in 1st pic and and profile and very shallow arc of ramp visible in 2nd. The more I think about it the more I'm sure that wide saddle aided intonation and laying the strings "flat" across it improved UST performance.

Wouldn't be surprised if each one (of the F65ce's) got an individual set up and test and saddle tweaking as needed.

 

[davismanLV]

LORDY!! You can almost SEE the headstock REACHING for the bridge!! Wowza!!

 

[kostask]

From the picture of the saddle, it seems like the saddle wasn't intonated, at all. All of the strings seem to be contacting the front edge of the saddle. Unless some extremely unusual string combinations were used, that saddle is not intonated. Also, the curvature of the saddle is way too shallow for any common fretboard radius. Unless the fingerboard has been re-shaped to a 32" or 40" fretboard radius, then the saddle is also not properly cut. It is wide, as well, but there is nothing particularly wrong with that; it does give a wider intonation range.

 

[adorshki]

From the picture of the saddle, it seems like the saddle wasn't intonated, at all. All of the strings seem to be contacting the front edge of the saddle.

Kostas, with respect, I believe they're supposed to in this configuration because of the UST. Mine's exactly the same way, "factory stock".

In a pure acoustic flattop with a narrower saddle, yes. My D25's saddle is ramped in an arc with the strings contacting the crest.

Unless some extremely unusual string combinations were used, that saddle is not intonated.

Spec'd for .010 extra lights. But I wonder if it may have been overstrung for several years in a misguided attempt to improve tone, aggravating the neckjoint/bridge issues. Then again, it is almost 30 years old.

Also, the curvature of the saddle is way too shallow for any common fretboard radius. Unless the fingerboard has been re-shaped to a 32" or 40" fretboard radius, then the saddle is also not properly cut. It is wide, as well, but there is nothing particularly wrong with that; it does give a wider intonation range.

Easy enough to check fretboard and saddle radius (I think Gary's actually got a tool), but I believe they're gonna come out "stock", I think it would have been 12" at the time, it did become standard in '97.

Also it's a 1-5/8 nut, the shorter radius arc is gonna feel flatter especially if it's larger than the 12" radius. And it looks just like the OEM micarta saddle to me, just like mine, although mine's still "whiter".

I don't think the 'board's been re-radiused.

 

[kostask]

Kostas, with respect, I believe they're supposed to in this configuration because of the UST. Mine's exactly the same way, "factory stock".

In a pure acoustic flattop with a narrower saddle, yes. My D25's saddle is ramped in an arc with the strings contacting the crest.

Spec'd for .010 extra lights. But I wonder if it may have been overstrung for several years in a misguided attempt to improve tone, aggravating the neckjoint/bridge issues. Then again, it is almost 30 years old.

Easy enough to check fretboard and saddle radius (I think Gary's actually got a tool), but I believe they're gonna come out "stock", I think it would have been 12" at the time, it did become standard in '97.

Also it's a 1-5/8 nut, the shorter radius arc is gonna feel flatter especially if it's larger than the 12" radius. And it looks just like the OEM micarta saddle to me, just like mine, although mine's still "whiter".

I don't think the 'board's been re-radiused.

I at this point, must stand by my original statements regarding the saddle. I would really like to know if the guitar actually plays in tune or not. If GAD keeps it, it might be interesting to see what something like a Peterson Strobe tuner (or any tuner with that type of accuracy) says.