And so it begins.....F-50R repair/resurrection.
- Thread starter kostask
- Start date
Thanks Ralf - you add so much to LTG
wileypickett
Enlightened Member
Following this thread with great interest, not tired of it at all.
I think you and your luthier are making good restoration decisions given the hand you've been dealt. It's a bit hard to "see" how it will look, with all the masking tape and what-not, but I bet it'll look great once the bridge is on and it's been cleaned up, lacquered and polished.
(People will be demanding "spoiled avocado 'bursts," mark my words!)
Some folks say that light wood areas (where stickers were, or where new wood patches have replaced the original wood, etc.,) will darken in time to match the surrounding wood. In my experience this isn't true.
My first "good" guitar was an old Epiphone jumbo acoustic. The first owner had attached one of those spring-loaded pick holders to the top, just above the fretboard extension. I took it off when I got the guitar and of course the area under it was much lighter than the rest of the top.
In the 20 years I had that guitar, that contrast never changed. That lighter pick-shaped area was as obvious when I sold the guitar as it was when I got it.
I think you and your luthier are making good restoration decisions given the hand you've been dealt. It's a bit hard to "see" how it will look, with all the masking tape and what-not, but I bet it'll look great once the bridge is on and it's been cleaned up, lacquered and polished.
(People will be demanding "spoiled avocado 'bursts," mark my words!)
Some folks say that light wood areas (where stickers were, or where new wood patches have replaced the original wood, etc.,) will darken in time to match the surrounding wood. In my experience this isn't true.
My first "good" guitar was an old Epiphone jumbo acoustic. The first owner had attached one of those spring-loaded pick holders to the top, just above the fretboard extension. I took it off when I got the guitar and of course the area under it was much lighter than the rest of the top.
In the 20 years I had that guitar, that contrast never changed. That lighter pick-shaped area was as obvious when I sold the guitar as it was when I got it.
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cutrofiano
Member
That is not exactely what the folks said
My advice was to take all the old color off...
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kostask,
Thanks for the updates; very much appreciated!
I know that this is after the fact, but I do think the teardrop burst works best on a Guild acoustic guitar as the Guild glued on pickguard shape many times interferes with a perimeter burst pattern. In any case, attached is a quick and dirty photoshop of a teardrop burst.
Tommy
Thanks for the updates; very much appreciated!
I know that this is after the fact, but I do think the teardrop burst works best on a Guild acoustic guitar as the Guild glued on pickguard shape many times interferes with a perimeter burst pattern. In any case, attached is a quick and dirty photoshop of a teardrop burst.
Tommy
wileypickett
Enlightened Member
That is not exactely what the folks said
My advice was to take all the old color off, only when the top is bare and bright again all over and then gets repainted, the color will equally darken everywhere (within a few years).
Every sort of blending between old and new bears the risk of a consequent mismatch once the blended part ages.
This is unavoidable when doing spot repair on a vintage guitar that must be preserved as original as possible.
kostask's guitar is far away from that.
Thanks for clarifying -- I get the distinction you're making.
With this guitar you could sand the whole top and refinish everything -- though there are dangers to the guitar's sound and structure in doing so -- but to do it right you'd have to remove the fingerboard (or neck) and the pickguard -- an even more invasive and more costly job. (And I'm sure kostask and his luthier considered this option.)
IMO -- and it's just my opinion -- I think the approach taken is perfectly acceptable and reasonable aesthetically. Probably more affordable too.
Anyway, looking forward to the next steps!
We went around and around on this for a long time between me and my luthier. We considered sanding the top, but getting down to new, fresh wood that would match up in colour to the new wood used to do the repairs would have taken a lot of sanding, and the possibility of thinning the top excessively to the point where it was going to be a structural problem was very, very real. Removing 38-39 years of spruce aging is not just a couple of swipes of 600 grit sandpaper even if it is under nitro.
I asked for the sunburst to be the way that it is. After the original damage, the originality of the guitar is gone, and with it went the collectibilty. So now, I can get the guitar to be what I want. I'm never selling it anyway, so may as well make it the way I like it.
The original bridge has been removed, and a new, factory bridge is being put on. The original bridge that came with the guitar was not only split/cracked, but the floor of the saddle slot was so thin that it actually broke through under the pickup. What we concluded was that the original bridge was removed, and the entire bottom of the bridge was sanded down extensively in an effort to accomodate the pickup. The entire bridge is a little over 1/8" thinner than the new factory bridge (it varies some because the original bridge was sanded at a slight angle). The oddest thing is that the saddle itself is extra tall, which restored the break angle, but probably contributed to the splitting/cracking of the original bridge. That will be addressed after the factory bridge is put back on and the guitar is setup.
I asked for the sunburst to be the way that it is. After the original damage, the originality of the guitar is gone, and with it went the collectibilty. So now, I can get the guitar to be what I want. I'm never selling it anyway, so may as well make it the way I like it.
The original bridge has been removed, and a new, factory bridge is being put on. The original bridge that came with the guitar was not only split/cracked, but the floor of the saddle slot was so thin that it actually broke through under the pickup. What we concluded was that the original bridge was removed, and the entire bottom of the bridge was sanded down extensively in an effort to accomodate the pickup. The entire bridge is a little over 1/8" thinner than the new factory bridge (it varies some because the original bridge was sanded at a slight angle). The oddest thing is that the saddle itself is extra tall, which restored the break angle, but probably contributed to the splitting/cracking of the original bridge. That will be addressed after the factory bridge is put back on and the guitar is setup.
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adorshki
Reverential Member
Kostas this thread is your tour-de-force. I was "offline" from April until October so missed it when you first started it, just wanted to say "thanks!!" for updating it or I might have missed it.. Love it.
Walnut oil for the fretboard? 
Walnut oil for the fretboard?
Al,
You know it. There is a lot to do before we get there though. Have to wait for the lacquer to get reasonably hard before sanding can begin, then a round of clear lacquer spraying, then more waiting for the clear lacquer to harden up before the final sanding and polishing, and then the bridge gets put back on, and then oil the fingerboard, and final setup. There's probably at least another month to go.
You know it. There is a lot to do before we get there though. Have to wait for the lacquer to get reasonably hard before sanding can begin, then a round of clear lacquer spraying, then more waiting for the clear lacquer to harden up before the final sanding and polishing, and then the bridge gets put back on, and then oil the fingerboard, and final setup. There's probably at least another month to go.
wileypickett
Enlightened Member
Cutrofiano,
I appreciate your desire to see the original wood! In fact I think everyone here would prefer that, were it reasonably possible.
But no luthier or guitar builder (that I’ve ever heard of anyway) recommends sanding the top of a guitar. Their advice is invariably, “Don’t do it!”
When lacquer is applied to the body of a guitar, it doesn’t just sit on top of the wood, it soaks into the wood fibers below the surface.
To prep the the top for refinishing, you have to get rid of all the old lacquer first, which means sanding through part of the top.
This will the affect the stiffness of the top, which can affect both the sound of the guitar and its structural integrity.
Also, because the top and bottom of the fretboard extension is beveled, even if one was to sand as close to the fretboard as they possibly could, there will be fine line that can’t be reached.
Without removing the fretboard or neck first, that line will be visible.
I appreciate your desire to see the original wood! In fact I think everyone here would prefer that, were it reasonably possible.
But no luthier or guitar builder (that I’ve ever heard of anyway) recommends sanding the top of a guitar. Their advice is invariably, “Don’t do it!”
When lacquer is applied to the body of a guitar, it doesn’t just sit on top of the wood, it soaks into the wood fibers below the surface.
To prep the the top for refinishing, you have to get rid of all the old lacquer first, which means sanding through part of the top.
This will the affect the stiffness of the top, which can affect both the sound of the guitar and its structural integrity.
Also, because the top and bottom of the fretboard extension is beveled, even if one was to sand as close to the fretboard as they possibly could, there will be fine line that can’t be reached.
Without removing the fretboard or neck first, that line will be visible.
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Neal
Senior Member
Man, I'd be inclined to leave the original top finish alone, and apply as close a match of tinted nitro as possible on the replaced strips of spruce.
I think it looks cool just the way it is.
I think it looks cool just the way it is.
geoguy
Senior Member
That was then, & this is now, folks . . .
Kostask, I hope you enjoy your guitar, and that you let us see the fully-completed end result.
Kostask, I hope you enjoy your guitar, and that you let us see the fully-completed end result.
davismanLV
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This is what I always did when making repairs to old wood. As @spoox says, the aniline or water based dyes are good to bring the new wood super close to the color of the old wood before applying final stain, finish, or colored finish. And I believe I said as much near the beginning of this thread. However, to truly do this in that fashion, you have to remove the old finish on the top. That's going to require a stripper because you cannot sand a guitar top that much. So it would require removing all the finish, lightly sanding the top, using the water based stains/dyes to compensate for the new/old pieces, then a spit coat, then finish. It's terribly tricky and painstaking and in this case the decision was made to just avoid all that work. This current way of dealing with the issue is certainly doable and avoids a lot of pitfalls associated with the other method.
I do like the teardrop photoshop version of the burst better than the circle, but that's just me and I'm not making the decisions here. And now that it's done, the point is moot unless a lot of sanding and stripping takes place, again, something to be avoided.
Can't wait to see the final result and a report on how it sounds. Thanks for keeping us in the loop and allowing us to follow this repair. All this information and technique is a good thing!!!
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We are literally waiting for the paint (or more accurately, lacquer) to dry, so that the work can continue. I will post more as the work progresses.
Wileypickett, have you by any chance been talking to my luthier? The points you brought up were essentially the same points we discussed, over and over again, for a long, long time. He did try to match up the colour of the new wood to the old, and it wasn't close enough for either of us. He flat out refused to sand the entire top down to the wood. He did "scuff up" the lacquer, but describing it as sanding would be exaggerating it. He definitely made a point of not getting down to the wood. He said that the guitar tops gather up all sort of foreign contaminants that could interfere with the lacquer, so he basically cleaned it really well.
Just so everybody knows, the area around the repair was sanded down to the wood level, but only in the actual area close to where the new wood was put in, and only to ensure a good glue joint. The wood underneath the lacquer is considerably darker than the new wood, even without the lacquer, so the colour difference is far more than lacquer ambering, it is in the wood itself, now.
Wileypickett, have you by any chance been talking to my luthier? The points you brought up were essentially the same points we discussed, over and over again, for a long, long time. He did try to match up the colour of the new wood to the old, and it wasn't close enough for either of us. He flat out refused to sand the entire top down to the wood. He did "scuff up" the lacquer, but describing it as sanding would be exaggerating it. He definitely made a point of not getting down to the wood. He said that the guitar tops gather up all sort of foreign contaminants that could interfere with the lacquer, so he basically cleaned it really well.
Just so everybody knows, the area around the repair was sanded down to the wood level, but only in the actual area close to where the new wood was put in, and only to ensure a good glue joint. The wood underneath the lacquer is considerably darker than the new wood, even without the lacquer, so the colour difference is far more than lacquer ambering, it is in the wood itself, now.
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wileypickett
Enlightened Member
No, I don't think so, but I've been dealing with guitars, guitar repair, and luthiers for many, many years!
I'm friends with Federico Sheppard, an acoustic guitar builder of 40+ years standing, who builds (and repairs) classical and steel string guitars.
Many world class, professional players use his instruments. He's traveled all over the world, visiting museums where some of the rarist old guitars are housed, making X-rays and measurements, and most notably has made reproductions of the three main guitars used by the legendary Agustin Barrios, the first classical guitarist ever to record (pre-dating Segovia). Barrios recorded around 100 pieces on 78 RPM records, wrote more than 300 compositions for guitar, and is today regarded as the finest composer for classical guitar (of the late romantic era) ever. Fifty years ago, he was almost unknown. Today EVERY budding classical guitarist cuts his teeth on the works of Barrios.
Anyway, Federico has shared his wisdom with me over the years.
And I subscribe to the *Guild of American Luthiers* magazine, the industry standard for info on guitar repair and guitar building. A great, great resource -- I have every issue.
What little knowledge I have comes mainly from those sources -- and my fumbling attempts to do a little repair work myself. (Guys like Federico build amazing cars -- guys like me rotate the tires occasionally!)
I'm friends with Federico Sheppard, an acoustic guitar builder of 40+ years standing, who builds (and repairs) classical and steel string guitars.
Many world class, professional players use his instruments. He's traveled all over the world, visiting museums where some of the rarist old guitars are housed, making X-rays and measurements, and most notably has made reproductions of the three main guitars used by the legendary Agustin Barrios, the first classical guitarist ever to record (pre-dating Segovia). Barrios recorded around 100 pieces on 78 RPM records, wrote more than 300 compositions for guitar, and is today regarded as the finest composer for classical guitar (of the late romantic era) ever. Fifty years ago, he was almost unknown. Today EVERY budding classical guitarist cuts his teeth on the works of Barrios.
Anyway, Federico has shared his wisdom with me over the years.
And I subscribe to the *Guild of American Luthiers* magazine, the industry standard for info on guitar repair and guitar building. A great, great resource -- I have every issue.
What little knowledge I have comes mainly from those sources -- and my fumbling attempts to do a little repair work myself. (Guys like Federico build amazing cars -- guys like me rotate the tires occasionally!)
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Br1ck
Senior Member
You have to respect those guys. I used to be outraged at the prices that luthiers charged for F style mandolins. Then I built one. Now I think they are worth every cent.Repairs like this are difficult to do well.
Opsimath
Senior Member
Been following and looking forward to the next report, especially if there are pictures of the progress.
I will post pictures as they are sent to me. As I said a above, there is a pause to wait for the lacquer to dry completely so that some polishing can be done, then it is onto the further spraying with clear lacquer, waiting for the clear to dry, final polish, putting the bridge on, and a setup.
My Luthier sent pictures of the guitar as it sits today. He has removed the tape around the top so that the rosette, pickguard and binding are visible. Next step is that he is going to lacquer the binding with amber coloured lacquer (just like it had before it was resprayed, right now, it has been scraped, and is brighter than the other binding on the guitar) to match the rest of the binding, then after that, clear lacquer spray, and then add bridge.
