Guys, im going to bid on this thing. I need your expert advice on the damage to the binding and how high would you bid for this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-1950s-SIX- ... 4a9b47a2b1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-1950s-SIX- ... 4a9b47a2b1
WTB: Guild X500T (Paladin's Model) also other x-500s
- Thread starter Danny F
- Start date
Walter Broes
Enlightened Member
Can't comment on what redoing the binding would cost exactly, but I do know it's a PITA of a job, and not every repair guy out there is too keen to do it.
What I càn say however, is that IF that guitar is adjusted to play with normal action in those pics, that bridge is looow, and chances of that guitar working with a B6 Bigsby are pretty slim.... :|
What I càn say however, is that IF that guitar is adjusted to play with normal action in those pics, that bridge is looow, and chances of that guitar working with a B6 Bigsby are pretty slim.... :|
Walter Broes
Enlightened Member
It's worth asking the seller about the bridge height - maybe there's no frets left whatsoever, and the strings are sitting flat on the fingerboard, who knows? There's the off chance that a refret with a healthy size fret, and medium action will raise that bridge between one and two mm.... :?: :?:
One of mine... :
1)NO!
2)Don't have an X500 or X550 - too fancy for my income!!
3)One of my Guilds also has the harp, as it doesn't have enough neck angle to really make the B6 work!
One of mine... :
1)NO!
2)Don't have an X500 or X550 - too fancy for my income!!
3)One of my Guilds also has the harp, as it doesn't have enough neck angle to really make the B6 work!
Darryl Hattenhauer
Venerated Member
Gus,
I'd love to own that. It's my kind of guitar. The more mileage, the more Mojo.
Walter,
The more delicately a player works a smallsby, the less neck angle he needs, right? So a sedate jazzer with a set of 13 flatwounds could use a bigsbyed guitar that wouldn't work for a butt-kickin', foot-stompin', rock-a-billy rockin' lead player, right?
I'd love to own that. It's my kind of guitar. The more mileage, the more Mojo.
Walter,
The more delicately a player works a smallsby, the less neck angle he needs, right? So a sedate jazzer with a set of 13 flatwounds could use a bigsbyed guitar that wouldn't work for a butt-kickin', foot-stompin', rock-a-billy rockin' lead player, right?
Smiert Spionam
Member
Good find on that '50s box. Obviously needs a lot of work, but it could be a gem. LOTS of potential, anyway.
Really hard to say without much better pics (and hard even then), but I'd assume a refret and neck reset, in addition to the binding work to get it back in shape. If it doesn't need one or both, consider yourself lucky. Done right, that could easily mean a $1000 repair bill. If this one doesn't hit reserve, it's well worth discussing it further with the seller -- they may not realize how much it needs, and the price could come down with a little education.
In any case, what's right about that guitar, to me, far outweighs what's wrong.
Darryl, on your last point -- I think so, to a point. But given how much this thing needs, it seems like a shame to fix some things and ignore the inevitable neck reset.
Really hard to say without much better pics (and hard even then), but I'd assume a refret and neck reset, in addition to the binding work to get it back in shape. If it doesn't need one or both, consider yourself lucky. Done right, that could easily mean a $1000 repair bill. If this one doesn't hit reserve, it's well worth discussing it further with the seller -- they may not realize how much it needs, and the price could come down with a little education.
In any case, what's right about that guitar, to me, far outweighs what's wrong.
Darryl, on your last point -- I think so, to a point. But given how much this thing needs, it seems like a shame to fix some things and ignore the inevitable neck reset.
billydlight
Member
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yeah ive been watching this too
Walter Broes
Enlightened Member
Without a Bigsby, I don't think there would be any problem, but with a Bigsby, not enough string angle on the bridge is not enough string angle on the bridge IMO - you would obviously get more string tension with 13's, but it would still be weird I think, and the whole length of string behind the bridge starts to come alive in all kinds of weird overtone ways.Darryl Hattenhauer said:
It doesn't have anything to do with how rigorously you work the twang bar - on my '59 X175, I used to have a Bigsby, and the strings would even stay put in the bridge with my un-elegant right hand attack, but the guitar just didn't sound right, wouldn't sustain a note, felt weird. Put the harp tailpiece on it, and presto - killer sounding/playing guitar!
This be that '59 I'm talking about : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEpdE3saYjI
Darryl Hattenhauer
Venerated Member
Walter,
I sure wish I could play like that. I especially like slipping the chord backwards at 47 seconds.
Smiert,
I don't care so much about old binding, but like you say, up to a point. In this case, I'd leave it alone. To me, it seems that making new binding look original is harder than making a refin look original.
I'm not so wary about a neck reset, although they can be tricky with a Guild, so you have to get the right person to do it.
I sure wish I could play like that. I especially like slipping the chord backwards at 47 seconds.
Smiert,
I don't care so much about old binding, but like you say, up to a point. In this case, I'd leave it alone. To me, it seems that making new binding look original is harder than making a refin look original.
I'm not so wary about a neck reset, although they can be tricky with a Guild, so you have to get the right person to do it.
Darryl Hattenhauer
Venerated Member
Gussed O,
It might not get as expensive as you think, especially if you could stand to leave the binding as is. Depending on where you are, you might get a neck reset for @ $300. I don't know what a fret job would be. Finding a used gold Guild short bigsby would probably take a year at the very least. Also, the serial # is 1955-6, so the pickguard and knobs are non-original because they are from @ 1959-63. An original pukeguard and barrel knobs are hard to find and expensive, but you could defray the cost by selling what's on it now.
You might want to think about just buying it now and working on it later when you get more money. But if so, you also have to think about whether or not you'd want to put a lot more $ into it than you could get out of it.
Maybe the chances of having to do both a fret job and reset are no greater than the chances of having to do neither.
Hatted Frau
It might not get as expensive as you think, especially if you could stand to leave the binding as is. Depending on where you are, you might get a neck reset for @ $300. I don't know what a fret job would be. Finding a used gold Guild short bigsby would probably take a year at the very least. Also, the serial # is 1955-6, so the pickguard and knobs are non-original because they are from @ 1959-63. An original pukeguard and barrel knobs are hard to find and expensive, but you could defray the cost by selling what's on it now.
You might want to think about just buying it now and working on it later when you get more money. But if so, you also have to think about whether or not you'd want to put a lot more $ into it than you could get out of it.
Maybe the chances of having to do both a fret job and reset are no greater than the chances of having to do neither.
Hatted Frau
Gosh, I want that gitar, Gosh, I want that gitar, Gosh, I want that gitar, Gosh, I want that gitar, Gosh, I do!
Bridge issues:
Well, the bridge top is already lowered as much as possible, right? Notwithstanding the Bigsby, you'd have to shave the bridge to get better action now.
Bigsby issues:
When the break-over angle is bad enough that light strings are just too loose, if you try and put heavier strings on it, the neck pulls up more and you are still screwed. I hear what you are saying about short Bigsbys, Darryl, but still don't see how it would ever, ever have a lower angle than the tailpiece that is currently on the guitar.
Binding:
First, that binding looks mighty brittle and it's pulled up at both the top and bottom sided of the cutaway, the non-tailpiece side of the bottom, the headstock and in the waist of the guitar. Guh!!
Second, look at the color of the finish on the heel cap. That lacquer got baked to look that color. Heat that will 'pop' the binding and discolor the lacquer can sink the top, too. I'm not seeing it in the pics, but I'm not seeing pics with the right angle to be able to tell.
Third, it's incredibly hard to do the re-binding right. The job calls for lots of small area re-finishing, too. I agree a neck set and a re-bind would be a $1000 US Dollars. If that guitar goes for $2K, then you'll really have $3K in it. Would it be worth it? That guitar would be a 7 out of 10 at best.
Do a search here at LTG on binding or rebinding.
Get more pics!:
If anybody is going to go for it, get some pics of the complete neck, so you can see if there are any cracks. Additionally, get some pictures of the top from the side, so you can see the 'silhouette of the arc of the top'. Why? So you can see if the top has sunk. I'm not saying it has, I'm saying look before you buy!
Shipping:
Also, see if the guy has shipped guitars before. Another thing, when the more protruding pieces of binding break off in shipping, they can roll around in the case and could scratch up the guitar.
Finish on the top:
Look at the dark spot on the top by the inside of the bass f-hole. Is that a shadow associated with a flash or light-source reflection, or is it a spot where the finish was worn off by the player-dad? Look at the spot, then look at where he has his arm in the pic; fairly close! Any opinions?? Also, look at the pictures of the Dad playing it back in the day (is that my shirt the keyboard guy is wearing?? Whoops, I digress!). See how he hooks his guitar strap on the edge of the top? Does that have anything to do with the scratches on the top at the edge?
gilded
Bridge issues:
Well, the bridge top is already lowered as much as possible, right? Notwithstanding the Bigsby, you'd have to shave the bridge to get better action now.
Bigsby issues:
When the break-over angle is bad enough that light strings are just too loose, if you try and put heavier strings on it, the neck pulls up more and you are still screwed. I hear what you are saying about short Bigsbys, Darryl, but still don't see how it would ever, ever have a lower angle than the tailpiece that is currently on the guitar.
Binding:
First, that binding looks mighty brittle and it's pulled up at both the top and bottom sided of the cutaway, the non-tailpiece side of the bottom, the headstock and in the waist of the guitar. Guh!!
Second, look at the color of the finish on the heel cap. That lacquer got baked to look that color. Heat that will 'pop' the binding and discolor the lacquer can sink the top, too. I'm not seeing it in the pics, but I'm not seeing pics with the right angle to be able to tell.
Third, it's incredibly hard to do the re-binding right. The job calls for lots of small area re-finishing, too. I agree a neck set and a re-bind would be a $1000 US Dollars. If that guitar goes for $2K, then you'll really have $3K in it. Would it be worth it? That guitar would be a 7 out of 10 at best.
Do a search here at LTG on binding or rebinding.
Get more pics!:
If anybody is going to go for it, get some pics of the complete neck, so you can see if there are any cracks. Additionally, get some pictures of the top from the side, so you can see the 'silhouette of the arc of the top'. Why? So you can see if the top has sunk. I'm not saying it has, I'm saying look before you buy!
Shipping:
Also, see if the guy has shipped guitars before. Another thing, when the more protruding pieces of binding break off in shipping, they can roll around in the case and could scratch up the guitar.
Finish on the top:
Look at the dark spot on the top by the inside of the bass f-hole. Is that a shadow associated with a flash or light-source reflection, or is it a spot where the finish was worn off by the player-dad? Look at the spot, then look at where he has his arm in the pic; fairly close! Any opinions?? Also, look at the pictures of the Dad playing it back in the day (is that my shirt the keyboard guy is wearing?? Whoops, I digress!). See how he hooks his guitar strap on the edge of the top? Does that have anything to do with the scratches on the top at the edge?
gilded
Darryl Hattenhauer
Venerated Member
Gil,
Or get a lower one. Would a rocker bridge be lower?
Ok, now I get it.
Whaddya want? A virgin?
That could be the most important point made so far. (Except for my points.)
Yep
I always give them the link to Gruhn's tips on guitar packing.
Whaddya think this is? A virgin?
Yes, you're watching too much CSI.
It's worn. What does it matter how it got worn? G sus. There's a place for you in cacademia. You're as bad as a professor.
Darryl Hattenhauer
Venerated Member
Gus,
You have guitars I haven't even heard of but sound like they'd be right for me--the green Setzer and the Beck tele. Gretsch is a brand I really need to find out about. I lost touch with them (and the rest of reality) about ten years ago, but it seems they are doing great things.
Gil,
Except in a line-up.
You have guitars I haven't even heard of but sound like they'd be right for me--the green Setzer and the Beck tele. Gretsch is a brand I really need to find out about. I lost touch with them (and the rest of reality) about ten years ago, but it seems they are doing great things.
Gil,
Except in a line-up.
Smiert Spionam
Member
Good issues raised here. It is indeed possible that it has a collapsed top, though that doesn't seem too likely. A possibility, though.
One less invasive (and less expensive) way to deal with the binding is to reshape and reattach it, using heat. That will still leave gaps, but it doesn't require sanding/shaping, and it looks more appropriate on a worn vintage guitar. It will leave gaps, but those can often be strategically placed. Depends upon the condition of the existing binding, of course.
Is it just me, or do those look like oversized frets? Given the wear on the guitar, it's quite possible it has an old refret.
The fuzzy pics can obscure a lot of trouble -- but they also leave room to imagine disasters that aren't there.
One less invasive (and less expensive) way to deal with the binding is to reshape and reattach it, using heat. That will still leave gaps, but it doesn't require sanding/shaping, and it looks more appropriate on a worn vintage guitar. It will leave gaps, but those can often be strategically placed. Depends upon the condition of the existing binding, of course.
Is it just me, or do those look like oversized frets? Given the wear on the guitar, it's quite possible it has an old refret.
The fuzzy pics can obscure a lot of trouble -- but they also leave room to imagine disasters that aren't there.
Darryl Hattenhauer
Venerated Member
Regarding reheated binding, could you also soak it with something that would make it more pliable and stretchable?
john_kidder
Senior Member
Walter Broes said:
Had precisely that issue on my '54 X-400 - the B6 didn't give enough break angle over the bridge, just plain messed up an otherwise beautiful guitar. Back to the harp, all is very good again.