Tin soldiers and Nixon coming.

[dreadnut]

Yes, both the agitators and the shooters committed despicable acts in this sad chapter of American history.

 

[Dr Izza Plumber]

I was finishing up HS, but a cycle racing team mate who attended Kent State, left earlier on that fated day, and missed all of the formalities.
Needless to say, We were relieved that He arrived home safely.

 

[West R Lee]

And just to clarify matters, the night before the shootings, the crowds had set fires in the streets, broken numerous windows and looted. The following day, the National Guard was called as an even larger "protest" had been scheduled. Later, the crowds set the ROTC building on campus on fire. When the fireman arrived to put out the fire, rocks were thrown at them and their firehoses were cut.

Yes there was plenty of blame to go around. The Guard had tried tear gas, but to no avail. I'm not saying anyone deserved to be shot, but the crowds certainly were not without blame.

West

 

[taabru45]

So damn tragic.....heartbreak, betrayal, disbeflef, fear, trust shattered, polarizing even ourselves against ourselves, family, friends, rage, so much we felt all at once in mass....I remember it so well...shocking...to the core....really crazy tough times for so many....and even now as a Canadian to those kids who returned from Vietnam with no sign of appreciation or welcome....I say now...."Thank you"....Steffan

 

[West R Lee]

So damn tragic.....heartbreak, betrayal, disbeflef, fear, trust shattered, polarizing even ourselves against ourselves, family, friends, rage, so much we felt all at once in mass....I remember it so well...shocking...to the core....really crazy tough times for so many....and even now as a Canadian to those kids who returned from Vietnam with no sign of appreciation or welcome....I say now...."Thank you"....Steffan

Amen!

West

 

[adorshki]

.and even now as a Canadian to those kids who returned from Vietnam with no sign of appreciation or welcome....I say now...."Thank you"....Steffan

Amen!
West

And thank you West for the additional historical background. As we all know, those who don't remember the past....

 

[West R Lee]

Unfortunately, I think a couple of kids that were just walking to class were killed. A novel idea.....going to class. A very sad incident........hope nothing like it happens again.

West

 

[adorshki]

Unfortunately, I think a couple of kids that were just walking to class were killed. A novel idea.....going to class. A very sad incident........hope nothing like it happens again.
West

That rings a big big bell. I also seem to remember that the shots were intended to be warnings only.
Rhetorical question in sympathy for the National Guard commander: How the h--l are you supposed to determine when a mob is out of control and justifies the use of deadly force?
In sympathy for the students: How the hell are you supposed to know that maybe going to class wouldn't be such a great idea today? In fact I could see MYSELF going to class and thinking I'll be d----d if I'll let these demonstrators interfere with getting the education I'm paying good money for.
But that's REAL easy to SAY, now.

 

[CA-35]

The protesters: Jeffrey Glenn Miller; age 20; 265 ft (81 m) shot through the mouth; killed instantly and Allison B. Krause; age 19; 343 ft (105 m) fatal left chest wound; died later that day.
Walking from one class to another: William Knox Schroeder; age 19; 382 ft (116 m) fatal chest wound; died almost an hour later in a hospital while waiting for surgery and Sandra Lee Scheuer; age 20; 390 ft (120 m) fatal neck wound; died a few minutes later from loss of blood.

The distances are from shooter to victim. Inexcusable.

Least I forget the wounded:
Joseph Lewis Jr.; 71 ft (22 m); hit twice in the right abdomen and left lower leg
John R. Cleary; 110 ft (34 m); upper left chest wound
Thomas Mark Grace; 225 ft (69 m); struck in left ankle
Alan Michael Canfora; 225 ft (69 m); hit in his right wrist
Dean R. Kahler; 300 ft (91 m); back wound fracturing the vertebrae, permanently paralyzed from the chest down
Douglas Alan Wrentmore; 329 ft (100 m); hit in his right knee
James Dennis Russell; 375 ft (114 m); hit in his right thigh from a bullet and in the right forehead by birdshot, both wounds minor
Robert Follis Stamps; 495 ft (151 m); hit in his right buttock
Donald Scott MacKenzie; 750 ft (230 m); neck wound

 

[West R Lee]

Unfortunately, I think a couple of kids that were just walking to class were killed. A novel idea.....going to class. A very sad incident........hope nothing like it happens again.
West

That rings a big big bell. I also seem to remember that the shots were intended to be warnings only.
Rhetorical question in sympathy for the National Guard commander: How the h--l are you supposed to determine when a mob is out of control and justifies the use of deadly force?
In sympathy for the students: How the hell are you supposed to know that maybe going to class wouldn't be such a great idea today? In fact I could see MYSELF going to class and thinking I'll be d----d if I'll let these demonstrators interfere with getting the education I'm paying good money for.
But that's REAL easy to SAY, now.

Hindsight is definately 20/20. It's easy to say now that violence is never the answer, unfortunately.......sometimes it is. It just seems to a more "mature" me that it's (violence) not the way to demonstrate (make a point) to the government......the ballot box is. I really believe there are people who'd like nothing better than to tear our country apart.....from within, personally, I'd rather be above that and hope that we all would be.

West

 

[adorshki]

Hindsight is definately 20/20. It's easy to say now that violence is never the answer, unfortunately.......sometimes it is. It just seems to a more "mature" me that it's (violence) not the way to demonstrate (make a point) to the government......the ballot box is.

I pondered that dichotomy myself: When IS violence neccessary? After all, what was the American Revolution? Answer: An act of revolt against a government which allowed no participation of the governed in making the laws by which they were governed.
Therein is the key. This system is founded on representation. To allow peaceful change.
Anybody remember Tom Hayden? Former Abbie Hoffman cohort realizes the system really does work and serves terms as California state Assemblyman and Senator.
And that's EXACTLY how the Founding Fathers intended it to work.

 

[West R Lee]

Hindsight is definately 20/20. It's easy to say now that violence is never the answer, unfortunately.......sometimes it is. It just seems to a more "mature" me that it's (violence) not the way to demonstrate (make a point) to the government......the ballot box is.

I pondered that dichotomy myself: When IS violence neccessary? After all, what was the American Revolution? Answer: An act of revolt against a government which allowed no participation of the governed in making the laws by which they were governed.
Therein is the key. This system is founded on representation. To allow peaceful change.
Anybody remember Tom Hayden? Former Abbie Hoffman cohort realizes the system really does work and serves terms as California state Assemblyman and Senator.
And that's EXACTLY how the Founding Fathers intended it to work.

And amen.

West

 

[capnjuan]

I was on College Avenue just outside the south gates of Berkeley during the Democratic convention of '68; a pretty mild crowd although I did tie a saucepan to my head just in case ... I needed to make some sauce.

If I'd been a student at Kent State in May of '70 or lived nearby, I'd have been with the demonstrators. I wouldn't have lit any buildings on fire. When I got out of the service in '71, there was a demonstration on the Mall - I was there ... I didn't light any buildings on fire.

The authorities aren't supposed to shoot citizens ... that's what they're doing in Syria and Libya now.

 

[adorshki]

The authorities aren't supposed to shoot citizens ... that's what they're doing in Syria and Libya now.

Agreed.
BUT, there's is also a duty to protect INNOCENT citizens from MOB lawlessness.
Rhetorical question: don't want to stir up "heated debate", but how do you institute "due process" when tear gas is already ineffective? Just to point up the complexities leading to the decision to use deadly force.

 

[Scratch]

I'll never forget the welcome home received in March 1972 as the bus arrived at the airport in San Francisco. We waited on the bus with windows up until the crowd threw the last of their eggs/tomatos etc. Never forget the names we were called as we dismounted to go inside the airport to catch our freedom ride home. We had heard the stories from others before we left theater for the CONUS and found them to be true. Somehow it was all our fault. If you've never been on the receiving end of that misplaced hatred, you have no idea. None... I've tried to forgive; still working on it...

 

[Frosty]

The authorities aren't supposed to shoot [ed: unarmed] citizens ...

An astonishing escalation... truly an insane moment.

Scratch, I have never been in your shoes but I am sorry for your experience.

 

[Retropicker]

I visited Kent State 2 winters ago. In one parking lot are markers where the kids fell. One of them was plowed under a pile of snow. I thought that was sad.

 

[Dr. Spivey]

From my point of view there are no facts about how the demonstration came to be, or how it came off that have any relevance.

The demonstrators were unarmed and many were unruly and the National Guard was deployed to control the crowd and protect property.

The National Guard failed miserably in their mission and murdered unarmed citizens in the process. Custer could have won that battle.

 

[CA-35]

Re;

The National Guard failed miserably in their mission and murdered unarmed citizens in the process.

A little harsh but I concur.

 

[capnjuan]

The authorities aren't supposed to shoot [unarmed - thank you Michael] citizens ... that's what they're doing in Syria and Libya now.

Agreed. BUT, there's is also a duty to protect INNOCENT citizens from MOB lawlessness. Rhetorical question: don't want to stir up "heated debate", but how do you institute "due process" when tear gas is already ineffective? Just to point up the complexities leading to the decision to use deadly force.

Several of the people who were shot were 'innocent'; they were just people passing by. The innocent, as it turned out, were in greater danger from the people trying to protect them than they were from the mob. I remember the '65 riots in Watts and the '68 riots in Washington DC; there were also riots in Detroit and lots of other places. In several of those cases, the authorities declared martial law and issued shoot-to-kill orders for looters and arsonists. There was no declaration of martial law at Kent State; the Guardsmen didn't have the right to do what they did.

In the aftermath, they held hearing after hearing and there were Wrongful Death trials; nobody was ever able to piece together the specific events giving rise to the firing of shots ... I think it's fair to believe that there probably weren't any; that it was all driven by lack of leadership and discipline in the unit and the men being overcome by confusion, panic, and hysteria. If I'd been one of them, I'd have been shaking in my boots not to mention having my guts ripped out thinking that I might have friends, friends of friends, or relatives in the crowd.

They were just Guardsmen ... week-end warriors ... not riot police; they're supposed to sandbag levees, do emergency storm cleanup, go to summer camp and wash their trucks for two weeks .... nobody is supposed to be sent anywhere with loaded guns, no clear orders, and ineffective leadership. They're not supposed to be substitutes for civil authority; the University, local, county, and State police. The police are trained in the use of deadly force v. civilians; not the National Guard. Except for more deaths and injuries, I don't see how it could have been worse.