Nitrocellulose vs. Other Finishes

[capnjuan]

... I guess the Gretsch (second pic) was what I was referring to.

Hi Johnny; for lack of a better word, lots of people have used the term 'finish checking' to refer to the 'Gretsch' and 'Guild' conditions interchangeably ... but they aren't the same thing. The former looks like the natural effects of aging and the latter ... well ... who knows what's the deal with it; temperature, humidity, rough handling, phases of the moon ... ??

And ... there's no reason to keep your trap shut .... nobody else does :shock:

 

[curt]

Checking that runs along the grain is caused by the finishes inability to expand and contract at the same rate as the wood due to normal seasonal humidity changes.

Checking that goes across the grain that I've seen, worked with has to do with stress or shock with figured maple being the exception.

 

[curt]

.... Double post and can't find a delete button....

 

[fronobulax]

.... Double post and can't find a delete button....

There isn't one, but all is forgiven.

 

[adorshki]

It's pretty obvious that the cracks in the waist were made by normal Burrowing Lacquer Mites, while those in the upper bout were made by mites who had been treated with tiny hits of LSD-25.
Spiders do the same thing with their webs, when dosed.

I see...who is supplying these mighty mites with the magic mushrooms?

I cannot tell a lie. Owsley did it.
Sadly his recent demise may bode ill for our valiant little experimental volunteers. They may be reduced to huffing lacquer thinner.

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

Gawlee, 25 pages and 3000 posts.......don't tell me this one had fizzled out? I was enjoying this thread!

West,

This isn't a thread. It's the Atlantic cable.

 

[West R Lee]

Gawlee, 25 pages and 3000 posts.......don't tell me this one had fizzled out? I was enjoying this thread!

West,

This isn't a thread. It's the Atlantic cable.

Yes, but now with fiber optic, they can put so much more in a thread.

West

 

[capnjuan]

Bump re/ Toni's checking/cracking thread.

 

[Darryl Hattenhauer]

I see Annette Funicello in the back of that guitar.

 

[Ridgemont]

Bump re/ Toni's checking/cracking thread.

My god man, why did you bring it back from the dead!?! :lol:

 

[bluesypicky]

Bump re/ Toni's checking/cracking thread.

My god man, why did you bring it back from the dead!?! :lol:

OK. I need to get me a dog now. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[capnjuan]

Bump re/ Toni's checking/cracking thread.

My god man, why did you bring it back from the dead!?! :lol:

Don't mess with me or I'll bump TonyT's legendary 'This Thread's About Nothing' (that went for 25 pages or so ...) or Frono's 'Post Count' thread ... another LTG Hall of Famer (Shamer?) that hit 30+ pages :evil: :lol:

 

[bluesypicky]

Don't mess with me or I'll bump TonyT's legendary 'This Thread's About Nothing' (that went for 25 pages or so ...) or Frono's 'Post Count' thread ... another LTG Hall of Famer (Shamer?) that hit 30+ pages :evil: :lol:

No no!!! The one where we were discussing the worthiness of NH Guilds at their current prices!!!

 

[ladytexan]

Bump re/ Toni's checking/cracking thread.

I'm innocent, HONEST!!! I didn't know about this 27 PAGE thread! :shock: Mea cupla, mea culpla, mea maxima culpa!

 

[capnjuan]

Don't mess with me or I'll bump TonyT's legendary 'This Thread's About Nothing' (that went for 25 pages or so ...) or Frono's 'Post Count' thread ... another LTG Hall of Famer (Shamer?) that hit 30+ pages :evil: :lol:

No no!!! The one where we (or should I say Y'all...) were discussing the worthiness of NH Guild at their current prices!!!

:lol: :lol: Okay; I'm holding my nose just in case you bump it. :evil:

I thought this 'Finishes' thread was about the best group effort we've ever had on any subject. We had Professor Ridgemont from the Chemistry Dept, Carl channeling Frank (ie Laine) Ford and Taylor Guitars, and LTG's own Lab Technician/advocate Curt contributing to one of the more substantive (although windy) threads.

I thought the discussion on physical properties was pretty good. When it came to propensity to fracture ... well ... the relatively small number of guitars with UV-cured finish and widespread fractures pretty much spoke for itself. When the discussion focused on tone ... about all anybody could say was was that NCL had properties which were more likely to lead to good tone ... thin to start with and getting thinner with age ... but I also thought the preference for NCL was also colored by people's reverence for the traditional approach ... NCL and dove-tail necks v. UV-curing and bolt-ons.

Without paying private eyes to conduct A/B double-blind listening tests, there no science to be had on the subject of which sounds better ... not to mention that 'better' can't be defined. There's a guy named Ethan Winer who is pretty well-known in the audio world. It's his opinion that much of what we think we hear is a function of memory and expectations. While this thread was alive and people were singing the praises of NCL's tone properties, I was tempted to throw some of his stuff in.

I mean ... could Winer be right? Could it be that die-hard NCL fans wouldn't be able to distinguish NCL from UV-cured in a blind test? And that all they were hearing was their memories and expectations; it must be good if it's NCL? I thought bring that up would be the same as throwing the Baby Ruth in the punchbowl ... so I didn't ... then.

Anyway, unless you think you have to, you might let the NH Guild thing pass ... please ...

 

[capnjuan]

Bump re/ Toni's checking/cracking thread.

I'm innocent, HONEST!!! I didn't know about this 27 PAGE thread! :shock: Mea cupla, mea culpla, mea maxima culpa!

Not a problem ... just do a few of these as penance ... we're on the honor system at LTG anyway

 

[fronobulax]

or Frono's 'Post Count' thread ... another LTG Hall of Famer (Shamer?) that hit 30+ pages :evil: :lol:

I'd like to say in my defense that I did NOT start this thread although I will plead guilty to keeping it going far beyond its utility.

That said, I too wondered why this got bumped but CapnJuan posted some pretty good reasons for it and even dropped hints that might help someone search for the wheat among the chaff.

 

[Ridgemont]

I mean ... could Winer be right? Could it be that die-hard NCL fans wouldn't be able to distinguish NCL from UV-cured in a blind test?

Well that is entirely possible. There are a lot of variables to that however. First off, it depends on who you are asking. To non musicians, I bet they would sound the same, but so would a maple jumbo with a 21" lower bout and a small rosewood parlor. Their ears just would not be trained to hear the difference. A trained guitarist would have a better shot, but there is no guarantee if they were blindfolded and the guitars were played for them. They may if they played the guitars themselves. I have had a couple of GADs and always noticed that the do not vibrate as much as my nitro guitars. Would I be able to feel the difference in vibrations if I were blindfolded? Maybe not, but worth testing. I like fine single-malt scotch because people say I should, but I doubt I would be able to tell the difference between that and Wild Turkey. I have seen some blind taste tests over on the Martin forum and some got them all right, but others did not. I couln't even tell the difference between mahogany and rosewood.

 

[cjd-player]

I have seen some blind taste tests over on the Martin forum and some got them all right, but others did not. I couln't even tell the difference between mahogany and rosewood.

Don't feel bad, Ridge. A guy over on AGF posted about playing a guitar that he liked at a guitar store. He said (and this is the key part) that he had always liked mahogany guitars but not rosewood. Afterward he had to go online at home to find out that it was a mahogany guitar. In the store he did not know if it was mahogany or rosewood. :roll: :lol:

 

[capnjuan]

Hi Ridge: over 30 years ago, I had pizza one night with my kids in one of the big national pizza places. I can't say I was much of a pizza fan before but the pizza I had that night struck me as really fine and, for lack of a better way to put it, has been my gold standard since. I'm not sure memories of taste are exactly the same as those of sound but both are sensory and, like fine wine ... or even bad wine ... age over time. Nothing today of the pizzas we get seems to come close .... but there's nobody to say the pizzas aren't exactly the same.

I don't think I'd excel at double-blind listening tests but I can't help but wonder how some self-described 'golden-ear' dudes would do. Throughout this thread, I kept thinking about, say, Guild making two F40s; as close to identical as possible save only the finish; NCL on one ... UV-cured on the other and whether the 'golden ears' could make a distinction. Well ... I was keeping that angle until hideglue said that even when he and his colleagues were stringing up brand new identical models, each still had subtle differences despite the fact that they were as similar as realistically possible.

If it matters, I'd put hideglue in the [real] golden ears class ... he also gets additional points because he's a reformed stereophile. In any event, there's a lot more to it than just sound waves hitting the eardrums.