Nitrocellulose vs. Other Finishes

capnjuan

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Re: Would you buy a polyester-finished Guild?

Chazmo said:
I have merged the "Would you buy a polyester-finished Guild?" poll thread with this thread. This may have resulted in some interleaving that looks a little funny.
So long as we don't put it in the freezer, it'll be fine.
Jane said:
The wood, and it's coatings of...whatever...expand and contract at different rates when exposed to...whatever...
Not whatever ... that's what it is; the difference in each's coefficient of expansion. The wood fibers have some insulating quality and will contract and expand more slowly than nitro ... and more slowly than poly too.
 

adorshki

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Re: Would you buy a polyester-finished Guild?

capnjuan said:
Chazmo said:
I have merged the "Would you buy a polyester-finished Guild?" poll thread with this thread. This may have resulted in some interleaving that looks a little funny.
So long as we don't put it in the freezer, it'll be fine.
Jane said:
The wood, and it's coatings of...whatever...expand and contract at different rates when exposed to...whatever...
Not whatever ... that's what it is; the difference in each's coefficient of expansion. The wood fibers have some insulating quality and will contract and expand more slowly than nitro ... and more slowly than poly too.
May I humbly submit also, that perhaps the total surface area of a typical top may accumulate more stress than Curt's sample size? The more surface area, the more accumulated stress to "give" when it finally does...but that's a hypothesis. Not sure if physics would back it up.
Perhaps this would be a good place for a metal substrate test, to eliminate the "compression" CJD refers to. If we're trying isolate to test for the effect of thermal shock only, it seems to me that'd be a good way to go.
In any case, as Curt and Cap'njuan said, at least somebody DID something, and I also thank you!
 

West R Lee

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Gawlee, 25 pages and 3000 posts.......don't tell me this one had fizzled out? I was enjoying this thread! :wink:

West
 

Ridgemont

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West R Lee said:
Gawlee, 25 pages and 3000 posts.......don't tell me this one had fizzled out? I was enjoying this thread! :wink:

West
I wouldn't say I am done with this thread, but it does seem like there is a standstill. Two issues that do need to be addressed at this point are the wood compression that we saw in the test, and this notion that old brittle nitrocellulose is more prone to cracks. If we could brace the wood in the freshly lacquered wood and a piece of nitrocellulose/wood from an old guitar, we could address both issues at once. If compression is still an issue, we could move to a metal base like Al suggested. I would really love go draw some conclusions so we could all be further educated on the matter.
 

kostask

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Sorry to post, but I thought I would have a couple of points to bring up.

1. Wood expands and contracts with temperature, but more with humidity changes. If it were just a temperature change, the probability of checking on nitro finished guitars would be quite low. The real factor that causes the checking is humidity. Everybody associates checking with cold temperatures, but the reality is, the colder the temperature, the lower the moisture content capacity of the air(humidity is always measured in relative terms). When a guitar is very cold, and is brought into a hotter room, it will begin to take on humidity, much like a dried out guitar will take on humidity and (hopefully) regain its properly humidified shape. However, when it is going from a cold environment (=low humidity) to a warmer one (=high humidity) suddenly. it will begin to take on water and expand much faster. The vast majority of this expansion is due to the expansion of the white wood between the grain lines of the wood, and much less (actually almost none) will be in the grain lines. Expansion is linear (i.e. each inch of wood width (perpendicular to the grain lines) will expand by roughly the same amount. So a piece of wood, 1" wide will expand by X amount with a humidity change of say 30%. the same piece of wood, 2 inches wide, will expand roughly 2X (assuming quartersawn wood). This isn't an iron clad rule, as wood is a non-uniform material, so changes in grains per inch, and the actual piece of wood will impact the expansion rate, but it will always be true that a wider piece of wood will expand more than a narrower piece of wood. Expansion and contraction of the soundboard wood, in many cases, is why braces come loose or unglued (aside from other factors like impact, insufficient/improperly glued joints, and poor quality or just bad glue). Hardwoods do not expand and contract at the rate that softwoods (including all forms of spruce, cedar, and redwood).

2. What we know as Nitro cellular lacquer comes from either trees, or insects (insects in the case of guitar lacquer, from trees in the case of Chinese lacquers). In its natural form, it is solid. It needs to be dissolved in something, and many solvents have been used, as well as other chemicals to make it easier to spray (often called plasitcizers), and things like retarders to increase the time that it takes the lacquer to dry to allow the humidity/gasses to escape before the nitro surface begins to solidify. Given enough time (very variable, depends on things like initial concentration, ambient humidity, temperature, thickness of finish, etc.) the solvents and other chemicals will evaporate, because they are volatile. The lacquer finish (almost entirely solids now) will be more brittle, and will tend to both be thinner and harder/more brittle than when initially sprayed, it will also be microscopically lighter. This process will be ongoing for many years, in many cases, for the rest of the life of the guitar.

Given the above, lacquer checking will be more prevalent with older guitars, and the tops of guitars (if made of softwoods) will check more than backs or sides. There will be a lower prevalence of checking on backs and sides, and on the tops of all mahogany guitars.

As for tone, while a lot of well respected hand builders and guitar factories have changed over to either catalyzed or poly (-ester or -urethane) finished, without the impetus of local regulations/codes on VOCs, lacquer would probably still be the choice of almost all guitar builders, large and small. Many simply don't have a choice, as the regulations either simply don't permit it, or the cost of a fully compliant nitro lacquer spray booth are simply prohibitive. Even in California, whose regulations are amongst the toughest, Fender's custom shop electrics are still often sprayed with nitro. Hand builders up here in Canada are mostly spraying nitro, because both the regulations are such that they can, and if they do, the requirements don't result in needing to build a cost prohibitive spray booth. Also, being hand builders, they can take the time to do a good job with the finish, allowing sufficient drying time, without the pressures of needing to get X amount of guitars every day. Factories need to produce guitars on a schedule, at a low enough cost to ensure that they are cost competitive and profitable when sold. Anything that helps this process will be used as long as the general public finds it acceptable. So, Taylor can spray a UV catalyzed finish in order to save time, and speed up the process, even though the capital investment is quite substantial, because they can spray catalyzed lacquer, and have it UV cured in 30 seconds. They are less able to afford the month or so that it takes a nitro lacquer guitar to dry to the point where a final polish is possible.

Sorry if I am sounding like I am venting, I don't mean it to sound that way.

Kostas
 

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"What we know as Nitro cellular lacquer comes from either trees, or insects (insects in the case of guitar lacquer, from trees in the case of Chinese lacquers)."

Nitro guitar laquer comes from insects? Maybe I read it wrong. But you may want to check that. Certain old laquers were made from ground insect body shells, but.....not the ones sprayed on your Taylor, Martin, Gibson or Guild. Nitrocellulose...comes from cellulose.

All guitar builders, or any manufacturer, unless independently wealthy, needs to make a certain number of guitars, shoes, widgets, etc. per hour, day or week or year of labor to meet costs, unless they have wealthy sponsors who will pay for their time regardless of cost.

Wontox
 

kostask

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Yes, you are right. Regular lacquers are made from insects and tree resins. Nitrocellulose lacquer is made from nitrated cellulose fibers (cotton most often). I mixed them up.

Kostas
 

hideglue

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kostask said:
Nitrocellulose lacquer is made from nitrated cellulose fibers...

And that was the point of one of my earlier posts.
Essentially similar in chemical make up as celluloid film. Ask any museum restoration/curator what his thoughts are of celluloid.
"Nitro"(for the purpose of this discussion) is highly unstable; it begins to degrade the second it's shot out as finish. Any experiment of controlled environment preventing that from ever happening is a waste of good time on this planet.
It's the real world, folks. You can't stop it.
 

kostask

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It very much depends on the process used to create the celluloid in the first place. While it is an unstable material, celluloid, if properly made and allowed to cure properly (i.e. enough time is taken to all it to fully cure), then it can indeed last a very long time. Celluloid was used for old film, and much of that film has degraded, however, some of it hasn't. Celluloid has been used to create old fountain pen barrels; some of them have degraded, and crystallized/decomposed, however many fountain pen barrels are also around from the 1920s and 1930s that are in fine shape, if somewhat discolored by either ink or sulfur from the ink sacks used with them. It is suspected that the the celluloid barrels that have degraded have had something go wrong in the celluloid creation and curing process. Those pens that are in good shape, date from about the same time that nitro started to be used for both car painting and guitar finishing. Without the expansion/contraction of the underlying wood to cause stresses, they do not crack or decompose in any way if they were properly processed in the first place.

However, it is a sprayed on, liquid finish (initially) that we are discussing here, not film or fountain pen barrel stock. The celluloid used in those items are only related distantly to nitrocellulose lacquer, and the processes used to create them differentiates them from the finish. From wikipedia:

"Nitrocellulose-based plastics slightly predate celluloid. Collodion, invented in 1848 and used as a wound dressing and emulsion for photographic plates, is dried to a celluloid-like film." (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid).

Due to the added processing involved with camphor and the subsequent curing process (time and temperature), it cannot be claimed that the characteristics of celluloid are the same as the characteristics of nitrocellulose, or nitrocellulose lacquer. There is no way to remove the effect of processing and the camphor used in the creation of celluloid and say that the characteristics of celluloid are the same as nitrocellulose lacquer.

Kostas
 

West R Lee

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Seems like Hideglue has mentioned the brand name of the nitro lacquer used in Westerly. Maybe the exact contents of that finish could be tracked down......then we wouldn't have to speculate on what it's made of?

West
 

Jeff

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Not that it matters, what I read about Nitrocellulose Lacquer says it's made from cotton fibers
treated with sulfuric and nitric acid, generating an acidic pulp, which can be strained to produce a watery resin

http://www.ehow.com/about_5044720_nitro ... cquer.html

"Shellac" is made from or by bugs, Laccifera lacca,
35px-Belostoma_indicum.jpg
http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/shellac.htm

I use Shellac on many projects, it's fast & easy, imparts an instant vintage vibe to the project & I suspect relatively low on the toxicity scale, it's also used for French Polish finishes, a whole nother issue.

http://www.refinishfurniture.com/french_polish.htm
 

johnny3j

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I like my guitars to have a finish, "satin" to me is not a finish, and when I hear polyurethane, I am reminded of condoms and late 70s Fenders!
Even when it means checking, I prefer nitro, wrinkles come with age after all :wink:.
 

capnjuan

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johnny3j said:
... Even when it means checking, I prefer nitro, wrinkles come with age after all
Hi Johnny; this is our best effort at understanding the strengths and weaknesses of nitro and poly and what causes the dramatic finish cracks seen on some nitro-finished guitars but not seen as frequently on poly-finished guitars.

Is this what you mean by 'wrinkles' ....

Picture310-1.jpg



... or is this what you mean by 'wrinkles'?

58cadgreen.jpg
 

curt

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I can only hope I live long enough to get the 62 that I resurrected will look like the original 58.
5862.jpg


58621.jpg
 

johnny3j

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capnjuan said:
johnny3j said:
... Even when it means checking, I prefer nitro, wrinkles come with age after all
Hi Johnny; this is our best effort at understanding the strengths and weaknesses of nitro and poly and what causes the dramatic finish cracks seen on some nitro-finished guitars but not seen as frequently on poly-finished guitars.

Is this what you mean by 'wrinkles' ....

Picture310-1.jpg



... or is this what you mean by 'wrinkles'?

58cadgreen.jpg

I guess the Gretsch (second pic) was what I was referring to.
The cracks on the Guild's finish (first pic) are unsightly, sure, and my F512 does have one or two such finish cracks but I haven't noticed a deterioration in sound quality.
But what do I know, I am primarily someone who plays old guitars, this is a discussion about new instruments, seems like I have no dog in that race and should keep my trap shut :D .
 

adorshki

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fab467 said:
Add this one to the Hall of Shame, as in what a shame... :shock:
finishchecking.jpg
It's pretty obviuos that the cracks in the waist were made by normal Burrowing Lacquer Mites, while those in the upper bout were made by mites who had been treated with tiny hits of LSD-25.
Spiders do the same thing with their webs, when dosed.
 

fab467

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adorshki said:
fab467 said:
Add this one to the Hall of Shame, as in what a shame... :shock:
finishchecking.jpg
It's pretty obviuos that the cracks in the waist were made by normal Burrowing Lacquer Mites, while those in the upper bout were made by mites who had been treated with tiny hits of LSD-25.
Spiders do the same thing with their webs, when dosed.
I see...who is supplying these mighty mites with the magic mushrooms? We obviously need to go on the offensive against these half-crazed, drugged-up bugs....the next time they come around looking for their "hit", just say no! That alone should significantly reduce horrible scenes like the one pictured above...
 
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