My Blem CV-1 Arrived - Trainwreck Neck
- Thread starter Scratch
- Start date
Hi Gary and welcome to LTG. If you want to post pics, you will need to open a photo hosting account somewhere on the web; photobucket, imageshack ... any one of them will do ... and upload your pics to the web. Follow the instructions in this link and you can post pics of your guitars.
As far as Guild Tacoma and Contemporary guitars go, many healthy babies got thrown out with the Tacoma bathwater when Guild closed Tacoma. They had a lot of unsold inventory; judging by what shows up on eBay, mostly Contemporary models but some Traditional models too. They hadn't sold these guitars through their dealer network and had decided to stop using the neck-block system - the distinguishing feature of the Contemporary models.
They had a choice between cutting them up or selling them off - without warranties - to other than Guild authorized dealers which is what they did. Because they were going to be sold for something approaching cost, the guitars weren't backed with warranties. To protect themselves against bogus warranty claims, they stamped all the unsold inventory 'Used' and dumped it into the gray market ... the loose collection of eBay re-sellers.
As Chazmo pointed out earlier, closing Tacoma was a black eye on Guild's reputation; that reputation took more hits in 2009 from eBay resellers who were hawking 'Used' Contemporary models. They raved about their physical condition: 'I had my luthier go over this guitar and they fixed all the problems' ... when, in fact, many had no problems at all ... while making only obscure references to the lack of a warranty. In 2010/2011, many of the same resellers tout their 'Used' models as having been through a guitar reclamation center ... but are being offered at the same '09 prices. :shock: :shock: Do you - or does anybody - really think the 'reclamation center' did the reclamation for free?
Some of the Tacoma 'Used' guitars are probably warranty claims waiting to happen; necks that turn into ski slopes or have iffy neck-sets but every other Guild location had some fraction of its output get screwed up too. So, just because a Tacoma 'Used' guitar is a dud doesn't mean it's a dud just because it's stamped 'Used' ... even if it had been covered by a warranty, some of the dumped inventory always would have been the subject of warranty claims whether it was stamped 'Used' or not.
Anyway, congratulations on both finding a trustworthy seller and some fine Guild Tacoma guitars. I've never had the pleasure with a Contemporary model but this is a pic of member Scratch's jumbo-shaped rosewood Contemporary cutaway ... about the only guitar to give me cutaway GAS:
As far as Guild Tacoma and Contemporary guitars go, many healthy babies got thrown out with the Tacoma bathwater when Guild closed Tacoma. They had a lot of unsold inventory; judging by what shows up on eBay, mostly Contemporary models but some Traditional models too. They hadn't sold these guitars through their dealer network and had decided to stop using the neck-block system - the distinguishing feature of the Contemporary models.
They had a choice between cutting them up or selling them off - without warranties - to other than Guild authorized dealers which is what they did. Because they were going to be sold for something approaching cost, the guitars weren't backed with warranties. To protect themselves against bogus warranty claims, they stamped all the unsold inventory 'Used' and dumped it into the gray market ... the loose collection of eBay re-sellers.
As Chazmo pointed out earlier, closing Tacoma was a black eye on Guild's reputation; that reputation took more hits in 2009 from eBay resellers who were hawking 'Used' Contemporary models. They raved about their physical condition: 'I had my luthier go over this guitar and they fixed all the problems' ... when, in fact, many had no problems at all ... while making only obscure references to the lack of a warranty. In 2010/2011, many of the same resellers tout their 'Used' models as having been through a guitar reclamation center ... but are being offered at the same '09 prices. :shock: :shock: Do you - or does anybody - really think the 'reclamation center' did the reclamation for free?
Some of the Tacoma 'Used' guitars are probably warranty claims waiting to happen; necks that turn into ski slopes or have iffy neck-sets but every other Guild location had some fraction of its output get screwed up too. So, just because a Tacoma 'Used' guitar is a dud doesn't mean it's a dud just because it's stamped 'Used' ... even if it had been covered by a warranty, some of the dumped inventory always would have been the subject of warranty claims whether it was stamped 'Used' or not.
Anyway, congratulations on both finding a trustworthy seller and some fine Guild Tacoma guitars. I've never had the pleasure with a Contemporary model but this is a pic of member Scratch's jumbo-shaped rosewood Contemporary cutaway ... about the only guitar to give me cutaway GAS:
capnjuan, thanks for all the info on posting pic's and your info on the Contemporary's. I have always assumed that Guild never got the Contemporary guitars to market due to Fender moving them to Hartford, I believe, and moving the production to China. I just assumed that the "used" stamp meant that they were just a short run of a guitar that they were trying to compete with Martin and Taylor as made in USA, which Fender doesn't seem to go for. Seems like they buy a Guitar Company and move the production out of USA. I do like Scratch's "sunburst" Contemporary, mine are all natural. I would like to know the real story on the Contemporary's, like how many of each model were produced in Tacoma. Just doesn't make sence to spend 4 years developing a guitar and move the company from Carona, CA to Tacoma, WA then to Hartford all within 2 or 3 years. Seems like Guild lost control during their time in Tacoma and Fender took over from there, just my guess. Gary (goldleaf)
Hi Gary; like most large companies, Fender isn't interested in airing out its blunders but I think the most sympathetic treatment of the Contemporary line and the closing of Tacoma goes something like this. When FMIC acquired Guild in the mid-'90s, it's probably a certainty that they had already planned to move some production to the far east ... the Guild Acoustic Design models ... the GADs. Doing so would give them two price points in the market; entry-level GADs and their premium-priced bread and butter models but what they also wanted was a mid-priced/mid-grade US-made guitar.
This thread has some of the actual dates of the patents on the graphite neck-block system which was the cornerstone of the Contemporary product line. The block viewed from the inside:
Mating piece on the underside of the fingerboard:
The system was intended to address both short- and long-term problems; in the short run, it would result in a faster, more accurate mating of the neck to the body ... after all ... you can have a nice neck and you can have a nice body ... but it's getting them correctly assembled, at the proper angle, in a long-lasting joint ... then you have a guitar. Further, and this is inference on my part but neck-angle/neck-set issues, if not the most frequent warranty claim would be the most expensive to honor. So ... since you and I are in the guitar business, it would be nice if we could not only come up with a system that gave us faster, more repeatable neck/body joints but also mitigated warranty claims in the future ... it would be hard not to see that as a good thing.
I also think that among used Guilds anyway, the next most serious problem is the nagging cracks running along the edge of the fingerboard intersecting the soundhole.
There's reason to believe that if the 'spider' assembly shown in the first pic was glued to the top (the thin layer of white stuff), the pressure on the top and body from the neck would be spread across the top instead of just transferred from the fingerboard to the top. Were this the case, then the whole top is resisting the pressure instead of just the fibers in the wood top adjacent to the fingerboard.
It's also reasonable to believe that Guild would have expected an early increase in warranty issues with the introduction of its new Contemporary models. The easiest way to address them and generate good vibes with the buyer and dealer is direct replacement. So ... when the music stopped at Tacoma, what was left was not only the unsold, warrantable inventory but all the come-backers as well. Since Guild had discontinued the Contemporary models, they were no longer in a position to exchange new, warranted guitars for those coming back as no good.
This thread has the stories of members Jeff and Scratch and their Contemporary models; each with slightly different problems and how they were solved ... it's worth the struggle to get through it all but the short of it is that, rather than permit an open-ended exposure to warranty claims, when Guild closed Tacoma they sold off whatever was left lying around; new, unsold perfectly good guitars, new unsold accidents waiting to happen, and previously-sold accidents that came back but never got straightened out ... all of them on a 'Used'/no warranty basis.
When you consider the new 'Standard' models being made in CT, it's not hard to see them as the successors to the Contemporary models; not what they are but what they cost ... FMIC/Guild didn't give up on the need for a medium-priced guitar ... more than a GAD, less than what they now call the 'Traditional' main-line, bread and butter models; the price point that the Contemporary models were expected to fill.
About all that can be said about the Contemporary models and the Tacoma venture was summed up a long time ago by the famous golfer and amateur luthier Bobby Jones who said: "Not every shot lands on the green". :wink:
Congratulations again on your Contemporary guitars!
This thread has some of the actual dates of the patents on the graphite neck-block system which was the cornerstone of the Contemporary product line. The block viewed from the inside:
Mating piece on the underside of the fingerboard:
The system was intended to address both short- and long-term problems; in the short run, it would result in a faster, more accurate mating of the neck to the body ... after all ... you can have a nice neck and you can have a nice body ... but it's getting them correctly assembled, at the proper angle, in a long-lasting joint ... then you have a guitar. Further, and this is inference on my part but neck-angle/neck-set issues, if not the most frequent warranty claim would be the most expensive to honor. So ... since you and I are in the guitar business, it would be nice if we could not only come up with a system that gave us faster, more repeatable neck/body joints but also mitigated warranty claims in the future ... it would be hard not to see that as a good thing.
I also think that among used Guilds anyway, the next most serious problem is the nagging cracks running along the edge of the fingerboard intersecting the soundhole.
There's reason to believe that if the 'spider' assembly shown in the first pic was glued to the top (the thin layer of white stuff), the pressure on the top and body from the neck would be spread across the top instead of just transferred from the fingerboard to the top. Were this the case, then the whole top is resisting the pressure instead of just the fibers in the wood top adjacent to the fingerboard.
The introduction of the Contemporary models .. not sure how many there ... coincided with the move from Corona to Tacoma. For whatever reasons ... new product resistance ... rumors of QA/QC problems ... grumbling dealers ... the Contemporary model sales didn't meet expectations (that's corporate-speak for 'requirements'). It's not too hard to imagine that experienced Guild owners picked them up and said: "Dang, this don't sound like my F30/F40/D35 ..." Since they weren't made like those guitars, it's sort of no surprise they didn't sound like those guitars. Even Donnie Wade acknowledged the difference in his quote above.In an interview with Guild's Donnie Wade said:
It's also reasonable to believe that Guild would have expected an early increase in warranty issues with the introduction of its new Contemporary models. The easiest way to address them and generate good vibes with the buyer and dealer is direct replacement. So ... when the music stopped at Tacoma, what was left was not only the unsold, warrantable inventory but all the come-backers as well. Since Guild had discontinued the Contemporary models, they were no longer in a position to exchange new, warranted guitars for those coming back as no good.
This thread has the stories of members Jeff and Scratch and their Contemporary models; each with slightly different problems and how they were solved ... it's worth the struggle to get through it all but the short of it is that, rather than permit an open-ended exposure to warranty claims, when Guild closed Tacoma they sold off whatever was left lying around; new, unsold perfectly good guitars, new unsold accidents waiting to happen, and previously-sold accidents that came back but never got straightened out ... all of them on a 'Used'/no warranty basis.
When you consider the new 'Standard' models being made in CT, it's not hard to see them as the successors to the Contemporary models; not what they are but what they cost ... FMIC/Guild didn't give up on the need for a medium-priced guitar ... more than a GAD, less than what they now call the 'Traditional' main-line, bread and butter models; the price point that the Contemporary models were expected to fill.
About all that can be said about the Contemporary models and the Tacoma venture was summed up a long time ago by the famous golfer and amateur luthier Bobby Jones who said: "Not every shot lands on the green". :wink:
Congratulations again on your Contemporary guitars!
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I have followed this with a great deal of interest. I just got a CV-1 a month ago, and the neck was straight as an arrow. In just the last week, the heel rose off the guitar side to the extent I could get a business card between. I am just sick. It did come from a humid climate to a dry climate, but I have kept it in the case and humidified since it's arrival. The local luthier says the neck is warped, and it is beyond his expertise. In fact, he thinks the whole thing is trash. I think he is saying that to cover up for his inability to tackle the job.
She has such a beautiful sound. I want to do right by her. However, I do have some questions.
Who has the experience to tackle this?
Has anyone here ever dealt with warpedneck.com? If so, what are your thoughts on them?
If I do have this fixed, what are the chances this will happen again? Of those of you who have had the Train Wreck Neck fixed, has the problem reoccurred?
Thanks for your input. I am trying to find the right path to go down here.
She has such a beautiful sound. I want to do right by her. However, I do have some questions.
Who has the experience to tackle this?
Has anyone here ever dealt with warpedneck.com? If so, what are your thoughts on them?
If I do have this fixed, what are the chances this will happen again? Of those of you who have had the Train Wreck Neck fixed, has the problem reoccurred?
Thanks for your input. I am trying to find the right path to go down here.
rebel,
Welcome to LTG, and sorry this has to be your first post here.
It may not matter, but is your guitar a "USED" one? It's a guarantee you won't get any help from Fender if it is. If not, there's a prayer (albeit a small one) that you might.
Anyway, I'm sure that a luthier could fix this problem. The question is really going to be whether it's worth it (to you). These are bolt-on necks after all, and resets are relatively easy... However, depending on the warpage, you may just need an adjustment of truss rod or you may be up s**t's creek.
I recommend you try someone else.
Welcome to LTG, and sorry this has to be your first post here.
It may not matter, but is your guitar a "USED" one? It's a guarantee you won't get any help from Fender if it is. If not, there's a prayer (albeit a small one) that you might.
Anyway, I'm sure that a luthier could fix this problem. The question is really going to be whether it's worth it (to you). These are bolt-on necks after all, and resets are relatively easy... However, depending on the warpage, you may just need an adjustment of truss rod or you may be up s**t's creek.
I recommend you try someone else.
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If you give us a general whereabouts, we try to keep track of decent luthiers.
We're a big bunch of enablers here, so if we can't get the neck straightened out, we can at least point you toward a decent replacement. Hopefully, it won't come to that...
What I would try first is over-humidifying it and see if that helps any. If it was fine in, say Florida, and it's living in Phoenix, it might need a little love and tenderness to get acclimated. Add a soapdish and damp sponge to the internal humidifier and see what happens.
We're a big bunch of enablers here, so if we can't get the neck straightened out, we can at least point you toward a decent replacement. Hopefully, it won't come to that...
What I would try first is over-humidifying it and see if that helps any. If it was fine in, say Florida, and it's living in Phoenix, it might need a little love and tenderness to get acclimated. Add a soapdish and damp sponge to the internal humidifier and see what happens.
Welcome here rebelhippiechick, and what Steve says is indeed true. Let us know where you are, and we'll in all likelihood find you a good luthier. In the rare instances that we can't, or you just want the best, just put that baby in a box and send it off to our own miracle worker, Fixit in Florida. I swear he can fix anything!
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I am in Colorado, on the Front Range. I called two Guild approved shops in this state, and one back East. All said they never heard of, much less laid eyes on, the CV models. Never heard of the graphite neck system. Go away and don't darken our doorstep anymore. The luthier I took it to is local, and I don't have a lot of faith in him.
This just happened within a week. I can't imagine, if it was green wood, that this problem wouldn't have manifested itself before this. These guitars have been out there for a while now.
Yes, it is stamped used. (Surprise, surprise, surprise). I had been on this site before I got the guitar. I looked at the neck when it came in, and I had my instructor look at the neck when I first got the guitar, and he thought it looked fine.
So, if anyone has any suggestions about luthiers that might tackle this, I am not adverse to sending it to a knowledgeable repair person, within reason. Any experience with warpedneck.com?
After I pick it up, I will get more sponges in the case. I am concerned that even after repairs, this problem may return.
I have to say, I hope Fender Guitar Company employees that dropped these on the market burn in hades.
This just happened within a week. I can't imagine, if it was green wood, that this problem wouldn't have manifested itself before this. These guitars have been out there for a while now.
Yes, it is stamped used. (Surprise, surprise, surprise). I had been on this site before I got the guitar. I looked at the neck when it came in, and I had my instructor look at the neck when I first got the guitar, and he thought it looked fine.
So, if anyone has any suggestions about luthiers that might tackle this, I am not adverse to sending it to a knowledgeable repair person, within reason. Any experience with warpedneck.com?
After I pick it up, I will get more sponges in the case. I am concerned that even after repairs, this problem may return.
I have to say, I hope Fender Guitar Company employees that dropped these on the market burn in hades.
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Yes, I can see why you would really be angry! Try the humidity first and see what happens.
Guild dealers that never heard of the Contemporary Series? That's just ludicrous. Unbelievable. Ignorant. There are no sufficient words, unless they became Guild dealers only recently. In any case, I would never call those people again.rebelhippiechick said:
I would normally tell you to call Scottsdale, but you will get no joy from Fender and a USED instrument, rebel. Unfortunately, these instruments were sold to jobbers (MIRC, actually) to distribute through non-Guild channels. They were sold on the cheap without a factory warrantee. Anyway, forget that avenue; it's hopeless and will just stress you out for no reason.
Any Coloradans out there wanna help our new member out with a lead on a competent luthier?
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I have contacted Fender already. No joy there. They don't even want to talk about fixing it for the usual customary charges. The Fender guy sent me a very terse reply.
I have super duper humidity going to it right now. But I am afraid that won't be enough.
Who was the luthier in TX that fixed the neck that started this whole thread? Does anyone know? Has he gone into the witness protection program, vowing never to work on another Guild CV? I wouldn't blame him.
Any help would be appreciated. I have gone down all avenues I can think of. Warpedneck.com doesn't seem real interested, either.
Oh well, if I can't fix her, she'll be a right purty wall hanger. UGH!
I have super duper humidity going to it right now. But I am afraid that won't be enough.
Who was the luthier in TX that fixed the neck that started this whole thread? Does anyone know? Has he gone into the witness protection program, vowing never to work on another Guild CV? I wouldn't blame him.
Any help would be appreciated. I have gone down all avenues I can think of. Warpedneck.com doesn't seem real interested, either.
Oh well, if I can't fix her, she'll be a right purty wall hanger. UGH!
adorshki
Reverential Member
To be fair to Fender, they don't have a corporate repair center for Guild any more. The Nashville repair facility was closed last year. ALL the work, whether warranty or not, is directed to the "Authorized Service Centers". So Fender couldn't take it in for "the customary charges" even if they wanted to.rebelhippiechick said:
That doesn't even get into whether or not Fender actually has any factory service info available for the Contemporarys, and that may why be all the folks you've contacted so far don't even want to spend time evaluating 'em.
We've seen some evidence that documentation for Tacoma product isn't as complete as one might expect or hope for.
In fact we've even seen outright replacement used as a method to satisfy warranty claims in the last couple of years. Ironically, right now, replacement is normally cheaper than repair, if a comparable model is available.
Whether or NH will actually set up a warranty service center for its production is still being evaluated, last I heard.
Anyway, check out Ridgemont's post, (Jennings) and if he isn't able to help, definitely put in a pm to our member Fixit, as his primary motivation is a love for the brand and he's been used by several members with unanimous excellent feedback. In fact it couldn't hurt to get 2 opinions at the same time, although yeah, I'd lean towards the closer guy if he's interested in doing the work.
A reset, if that's the problem, isn't very difficult. If the neck is truly warped, it may be a tougher problem.
Good luck!
Yeah, it's further along than you knew, Al... Actually, New Hartford now has a repair center for Guild. They have their own space in the facility. Not sure how many folks it comprises now, but it was two people as of a few months ago.
I don't know what their criteria are for taking on fixing a guitar, but at least as of a few months ago they were only accepting New Hartford's own products. This is clearly not what you used to get from the Nashville facility (they serviced everything).
The rules are different in a much bigger way though than just who / where the work is done... To wit, all warrantee repair gets approved (or not) and ticketed by Scottsdale before it goes to New Hartford (or elsewhere).
Anyway, all this is academic to our poor, new member who has been bitten by what we have all dreaded and been concerned about since Fender took this foolish path with reclamation of Tacoma's wares.
[moved thread to a/ae since it belongs here.]
I don't know what their criteria are for taking on fixing a guitar, but at least as of a few months ago they were only accepting New Hartford's own products. This is clearly not what you used to get from the Nashville facility (they serviced everything).
The rules are different in a much bigger way though than just who / where the work is done... To wit, all warrantee repair gets approved (or not) and ticketed by Scottsdale before it goes to New Hartford (or elsewhere).
Anyway, all this is academic to our poor, new member who has been bitten by what we have all dreaded and been concerned about since Fender took this foolish path with reclamation of Tacoma's wares.
[moved thread to a/ae since it belongs here.]
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Thanks so much from the bottom of my pea pickin' heart, Ridgemont, for the info. I'll call Ross tomorrow. I'll keep you all informed. You guys are the best.
West R Lee
Venerated Member
rebelhippiechick said:
Yes, do let us know how this turns out. Ross Jennings is my good friend Scratch's (the man who started this thread) repair guy and I've had Ross do some repair work myself.....the man is incredible.
I might also suggest that if you think you may have Ross do your work, you send "Scratch" a private message here and ask him to mention you to Ross. Just a thought.
West
adorshki
Reverential Member
Right, but all they're doing is approving (or not) a repair center's evaluation, right? That way the repair center is guaranteed payment (the "ticket") and Fender's protecting itself from a landslide of "surprise" warranty reimbursement claims from repair centers.Chazmo said:
But they can't force an authorized center to take on non-warranty work, and in some cases, "authorized service centers" may not want to take on legitimate warranty work for Fender's reimbursement cost...that's a wee bit troublesome too. I'm not aware of any "counterbalance" to that potential problem, like when Sandy submmitted a claim to a seller who rejected it for what appeared to be an invalid reason, didn't even submit it to Fender for approval...but I didn't want to try to pack all that into one post. :wink:
That's really the way things have been done for a long time. There have always been authorized repair centers since the '60's at least, but the "bump in the road" was the loss of an actual factory repair center which was kind of a last resort for those who coudn't find a willing local person, especially for non-warranty stuff. That void is still apparently unfilled.
Bing k
Senior Member
If it's one of the guitars that's stamped "used" there will be no warranty. Thus the balls in your court to fix or not and the expense is also yours.
Without having our hands on it, it's hard to tell what it needs for sure, but if you don't get any satisfaction from local shops or are having trouble finding anyone to really consider it, private message me or give us a call and we can discuss getting a look at it and your options about repair.
Without having our hands on it, it's hard to tell what it needs for sure, but if you don't get any satisfaction from local shops or are having trouble finding anyone to really consider it, private message me or give us a call and we can discuss getting a look at it and your options about repair.
Hi, all! Newbie here...
I've been shopping for a 'new' guitar to replace a Taylor 612CE I parted with when funds were scarce. As I'm a novice--and hardly wealthy--I set a price range of $500-$1200 as a reasonable range. I'm not huge, so I prefer small-bodied guitars; strangely enough, i also prefer their voices to those of dreadnoughts. I like strumming and fingerpicking. I've done Web searches, reading reviews and listening to audio or video clips (plus going to local guitar shops to get ideas). My favorite is an all-mahogany Collings OM-1A, which made me weak-kneed; it's hardly in my price range, though. Of all the remaining models I've heard or auditioned, the other two I most like are the CO Series guitars and the Seagull SWS Mini Jumbo. I was thinking the CO models that are still floating around must have seasoned by now, so the wood wouldn't be so prone to movement. Then rebelhippiechicks post proved me wrong on that count. (Really? Who the h#@l makes a guitar neck out of green wood? Even I know better than that!). Prior to reading of rebels woes, I seriously thought to pick up a used/'re-furbished' CO-1; they truly sound that good to me. Now I really have to wonder. Making a new neck isn't rocket science, but I'm also not eager to take on such a challenge. Is the track record of the Contemporary Series really as bad as it seems? Are the F30 Aragon or F40 Valencia anything like the CO and CV guitars in terms of sound? Or should I just buy the Seagull and bide my time til I can afford the Collings of my dreams?
Any input is, of course, most appreciated.
Thanks,
Michele
I've been shopping for a 'new' guitar to replace a Taylor 612CE I parted with when funds were scarce. As I'm a novice--and hardly wealthy--I set a price range of $500-$1200 as a reasonable range. I'm not huge, so I prefer small-bodied guitars; strangely enough, i also prefer their voices to those of dreadnoughts. I like strumming and fingerpicking. I've done Web searches, reading reviews and listening to audio or video clips (plus going to local guitar shops to get ideas). My favorite is an all-mahogany Collings OM-1A, which made me weak-kneed; it's hardly in my price range, though. Of all the remaining models I've heard or auditioned, the other two I most like are the CO Series guitars and the Seagull SWS Mini Jumbo. I was thinking the CO models that are still floating around must have seasoned by now, so the wood wouldn't be so prone to movement. Then rebelhippiechicks post proved me wrong on that count. (Really? Who the h#@l makes a guitar neck out of green wood? Even I know better than that!). Prior to reading of rebels woes, I seriously thought to pick up a used/'re-furbished' CO-1; they truly sound that good to me. Now I really have to wonder. Making a new neck isn't rocket science, but I'm also not eager to take on such a challenge. Is the track record of the Contemporary Series really as bad as it seems? Are the F30 Aragon or F40 Valencia anything like the CO and CV guitars in terms of sound? Or should I just buy the Seagull and bide my time til I can afford the Collings of my dreams?
Any input is, of course, most appreciated.
Thanks,
Michele