My Blem CV-1 Arrived - Trainwreck Neck

[chazmo]

Sigh, I'm really not sure what Fender did when they shut down Tacoma... How could these instruments not be marked as "USED" or somehow clearly marked as seconds and still get sold as new? acoustic59, do you have pictures? Especially, do you have pictures of the soundhole label and the back of the headstock?

These instruments continue to be a black eye on Guild/Fender. It gets my dander up. I believe the agreement was to sell the factory stock off as non-warranteed stuff, but with the stipulation of course that these instruments were seconds... Sigh. I'm afraid this will plague the Guild community indefinitely.

The beef here would seem to be with the dealer, acoustic59. Any dealer should stand behind the instruments they sell. Typically manufacturers support them, but if this wasn't an authorized Guild dealer... All I can say is that if Fender let these instruments get to non-authorized dealers to be sold as new, well, Fender has to have some accountability here. It's just not right.

All the instruments I saw that were sold as reconditioned seconds from Tacoma were marked "USED" and were steeply discounted and clearly labeled. In fact, the soundhole label had a scratched out or unrecognizable serial number on it in addition to the USED stamp.

I wish I could just say, well, you paid a low price for a "new" instrument, so what did you expect? However, when you buy from a bricks-and-mortar store, and you have no visual indication that the guitar is anything but a genuine, new item, how can anyone say "caveat emptor?" Sorry, it really does get me upset. Fender really has to do something about this.

Perhaps the best suggestion, acoustic59, was to enlist the help of the store that *is* willing to help you. They will act as your advocate and will get your guitar fixed for you. They (the store) will do the right thing because they know that's how retail customers are earned.

 

[acoustic59]

Thanks to all responders to my post. I appreciate your help and encouragement! This is a very cool group of folks here.
I'll try to keep you updated on the results as they happen. It will either be entertaining or sickening... (maybe a little of both) .

 

[twocorgis]

I wish I could just say, well, you paid a low price for a "new" instrument, so what did you expect? However, when you buy from a bricks-and-mortar store, and you have no visual indication that the guitar is anything but a genuine, new item, how can anyone say "caveat emptor?" Sorry, it really does get me upset. Fender really has to do something about this.

This was exactly Rocky from StreetSoundsNYC was about a very similar late Tacoma guitar "Amigo". His attitude was that since you got a low price you shouldn't expect any warranty support even though it's sold as "new". It's also why I'll never do business with him again. Fender absolutely needs to address this.

 

[acoustic59]

Thanks Chazmo for the solidarity. I appreciate the well thought out response.

I hope I don't fan the flames too much or bring to mind old wounds by adding my story to the mix (I think this kind of thing hits home to most guitarists, no matter what they play). I'm just looking for some good news out there and advice. I did take photos of the headstock and serial number on the Guild Tacoma label; also a shot of the strings hovering a good 3/8" over the 12th fret (maybe that shot is too painful to show...).
Will try to upload them soon.

The shop owner only said it had been in the shop a while and was thinking of putting it on sale when I said I was looking in the $1500 range (which is what I paid). So as far as I knew, and was told, it was new, warranty intact, good to go. Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. I didn't want to contact him until hearing advice from you good folks. I wrote earlier in the thread that my local store manager/luthier wrote a letter for me to give to the S.F. repair station, but thats about all he will do, as they are courting Fender again to get some electric guitars in their store. Well, I got the letter anyway. Looks like the S.F. repair will be the advocate for me, unless you think I otta' call that Nice Fella that sold me train-wreck neck guitar, and see where he stands. Gotta feeling I should just give the repairman the guitar/receipt/store info and let them do all the calling. Any thoughts?

 

[chazmo]

Thanks Chazmo for the solidarity. I appreciate the well thought out response.

I hope I don't fan the flames too much or bring to mind old wounds by adding my story to the mix (I think this kind of thing hits home to most guitarists, no matter what they play). I'm just looking for some good news out there and advice. I did take photos of the headstock and serial number on the Guild Tacoma label; also a shot of the strings hovering a good 3/8" over the 12th fret (maybe that shot is too painful to show...).
Will try to upload them soon.

The shop owner only said it had been in the shop a while and was thinking of putting it on sale when I said I was looking in the $1500 range (which is what I paid). So as far as I knew, and was told, it was new, warranty intact, good to go. Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. I didn't want to contact him until hearing advice from you good folks. I wrote earlier in the thread that my local store manager/luthier wrote a letter for me to give to the S.F. repair station, but thats about all he will do, as they are courting Fender again to get some electric guitars in their store. Well, I got the letter anyway. Looks like the S.F. repair will be the advocate for me, unless you think I otta' call that Nice Fella that sold me train-wreck neck guitar, and see where he stands. Gotta feeling I should just give the repairman the guitar/receipt/store info and let them do all the calling. Any thoughts?

Hang on a second, acoustic... Are you saying that you haven't contacted the store yet that sold you the guitar? Maybe I misunderstood you, but you were discussing legal action and I assumed you'd gotten rebuffed by the original seller. If you haven't contacted the original store, they are the ones you *must* talk to. They will refer you, presumably, to a local shop who can then evaluate things for you and get the guitar handled by Fender.

Sorry if I misled you, but that's the process for getting warrantee work. Do not pass go, do not collect $200... Let the store (and Fender) make it right.

 

[capnjuan]

.... I didn't want to contact him until hearing advice from you good folks.

Hi acoustic59; I guess I misunderstood too ... I thought you'd spoken to them and they'd told you they weren't going to mess with it. You need to at least speak to them; give them the opportunity to make it right. What are you going to tell Fender/Guild if they ask you what the seller said in response to your complaint?

 

[acoustic59]

Hi Sandy,
Thanks for the advice. Yes, original owner, have receipt, not stamped used: but I'm not sure this guy was an authorized dealer of Guild. I also had a local guitar store manager/luthier evaluate it and write a letter of evaluation. He states the guitar would be considered a "lemon" in his store due to the neck, bowed top (will need additional bracing), overly heavy construction (it is very heavy), etc.
It is in exact same cosmetic condition as I got it, even the same strings he put on it. I only use lowered tunings, so I didn't screw up the neck. It has lived in its case since I got it (with a humidifier). I'm really looking for some advice on how to get the guitar shop owner to take it back (have not contacted him yet). I have to assume he knew the problems with the instrument and got lucky with having a customer from out of the area (I know, not smart, but I thought a Guild warranty was gold...).
So if any of you good folks have any similar experience getting a lemon returned....I'd appreciate it; especially if it relates to Guild/Fender issues. One reason I'm not just sending it to a authorized Fender repair station is the horror stories from local repairmen/luthiers about Fender screwing customers. I really don't want anymore upset due to this instrument. What, short of small claims court should one do? Thanks for listening.. :|

Sorry if anyone was misled by my questions. The above quote is where I started it off, about a page back, mentioning I had heard these horror stories about the necks and Fender's questionable practices- worrying they wouldn't authorize warranty work on my new, but ticking time bomb guitar, and that I hadn't contacted seller yet. My original inquiry was what is the best way to begin process, which sounds like letting the seller have his say first. Also my feeling was I'm not sure I want this guitar after all the problems; I was wondering about any experience folks had with returning lemons to the seller. I just felt stupid about my purchase and let it sit in its case, until I found out by taking it to a couple of local guitar stores, that it was a major repair and would be a lemon in their store. So I did more research and found this thread and have been gathering information to know how strong to come on to this seller, what is a good compromise, what might be offered to me on his end? But yes, I will contact him. The "short of small claims court" part was me still steaming, thinking I'd add that to my quiver of arrows..... My fault for not writing more clearly.

 

[capnjuan]

... I was wondering about any experience folks had with returning lemons to the seller ... how strong to come on to this seller, what is a good compromise, what might be offered to me on his end?

Hi a59; no harm done. There might be a story here and there on this bb about people returning things ... because of its subject, this thread isn't exactly attracting a lot of readership.

A seller who isn't an authorized Guild dealer and can't recoup what he might pay you is going to be reluctant to give you any / some / all of your money back. After all, he gave up something to get the guitar ... and if he can't sell it again ... So, unless he has recourse against Guild or whoever sold it to him, you'd be asking him to Take One For The Gipper.

If the shop owner has a counterman that he thinks should have known better about the non-transferable Guild warranty or 'no card = no warranty', that's one thing. Be polite but ask him to put his turn-down in a letter including why he won't refund. You can staple that to you receipt if/when you get someone at Fender/Guild to listen to your complaint.

Also, you might want to avoid mentioning that you no longer want your guitar whether its made good or not. Good luck.

 

[chazmo]

OK, acoustic.... We just want to be helpful. Yup, now I fully understand. And, yes, contacting the shop that sold you the guitar is really your first step. I would just straight tell them that the guitar has become unplayable and needs repair. As the process proceeds, you can discuss whether they will consider and exchange/replace rather than repairing the guitar.

Having sold you the guitar under the Guild warrantee they will need to have you send them the guitar or refer you to a local authorized repair center. If you have difficulty even get that far with them, then the next step is to escalate to Fender.

Best wishes, and I hope you get whatever outcome you'd like to see. Keep us posted.

 

[capnjuan]

... How could these instruments not be marked as "USED" or somehow clearly marked as seconds and still get sold as new?

Hi Charlie; I know you're probably asking the question as a rhetorical lament but I think the answer is that an unknown number of C models passed Tacoma QA/QC but went south after they were out the door. In the parlance, the defects were latent, not patent. After all, a59's went south while it sat in a case ... unless he's a complete idiot - sorry a59 :wink: ,

It wasn't in that condition when a59 bought it ... if so,
It wasn't in that condition when the dealer bought it ... and if so,
It wasn't in that condition when it left Tacoma.

Anyway, that would explain how so many new (not stamped 'used') but now unsuitable guitars came to be floating around.

All the instruments I saw that were sold as reconditioned seconds from Tacoma were marked "USED" and were steeply discounted and clearly labeled. In fact, the soundhole label had a scratched out or unrecognizable serial number on it in addition to the USED stamp.

Yes; I've seen those 'unrecognizable serial numbers' too and believe them to be simple 'Unit ID' numbers ... tracking numbers and nothing more ... to distinguish which guitars were sold and to whom.

A lot of variables here particularly: FMIC M&A activity re/ NH facilities and Tacoma profitability ... and the player-to-be-named-later ... the auditor. When Guild sells a guitar, a couple things happen on Guild's books - part of the gross margin goes into a Warranty Reserve ... an asset ... and a balancing amount goes into Warranty Obligation ... a liability.

Some Frono math is needed to figure out how much is diverted either per unit or at year's end but over, say, the prior ten years:

Cost per unit to fix: The total # of warrantable returns (WRs) divided by the total cost of warranty repairs/replacement. The result is cost/unit.
How many will need fixing: The total # of warrantable returns (WRs) divided by the total number of units sold. The resulting percentage is multiplied against the current year's total units sold and that's how many units can be expected to go south.
Amount of current year's contribution to the Warranty Reserve: Cost to fix per unit X the number of units forecast to need fixing.

At fiscal year-end, management is supposed to have impounded sufficient revenue to cover the out-year's warranty obligations created by the current year's sales. If you're keeping score, under-impounding overstates profits and enhances bonuses (if they made a profit) and over-impounding understates profits needlessly shredding bonuses.

The fun begins when the auditors - who are hired by the shareholders - meet with Guild management:

Guild President Chazmo: "We've made the proper adjustments to our warranty accounts and we believe the results are fairly presented"

Auditor: "Hey that's great ... got any Starbucks? You know, I was out in the building a few minutes ago and Fred, your Shop Superintendent, pointed to a big stack of returned C models over in the corner. He also said he had one guy tied up full-time doing nothing but straightening out come-backers ... wassup?"

Guild President Chazmo: "Well ... <clearing throat and looking out the window> ... we have had some trouble with returns"

Auditor: "Hmm ... how bad is it; worse than prior years?"

Guild President Chazmo:" <now looking down at his shoes> somewhat more than we might have expected"

Auditor: "Just what are you saying President Chazmo?

Guild President Chazmo: "For reasons that we don't yet understand, we have units out there going south well after they left the plant. We don't have an explanation yet ... Lord knows we're doing everything we can and had high hopes for the carbon-fiber neck-block helping damp down out-years returns. We're not ready to throw the neck-block under the bus but the fact is there is an unknown number of Guild-warranted C model guitars yet to come back ... Jack ... and that's a fact."

Auditor: "Jumping Jehosaphat President Chazmo :shock: :shock: ... what are you going to do?"

Guild President Chazmo: "I have my resume out on Monster.com ... and an interview tomorrow... don't tell anyone :wink: "

Some guesswork: It cost (average) $400 to make a C model and Guild sold them to retailers for (average) $800. Of the $400 gross margin, $250 covered local Tacoma and allocated home office overhead leaving a net profit of $150 per unit. Every guitar that gets replaced eats the profit contribution of 2.7 already sold units without considering the balance in the Warranty Reserve. You'd have to think that after they found the pea under the mattress, they had substantial write-downs and re-statements and the income from all those off-the-loading-dock sales served only to offset already-booked loss reserves ... in addition to limiting down-stream warranty obligations.

I don't know what happened there as far as QA/QC but it's clear that Guild intended the Cs to be the medium-priced spread fitting in between the GAD and Traditional price points. Needing to fill that price point, the development of the 'Standard Line' ... now intended to fill that gap ... was probably a certainty as of the date Guild decided to move.

Guild gets points in my book for innovation; never having built a guitar, I really wouldn't know what the benefits/trade-offs of the neck-block were supposed to be. Scratch's guitar ... where somebody over-torqued the spider-to-fingerboard bolts ... that's an exception ... not a hit on the block itself but the guitar did have neckaroo problems apart from the mechanical damage. Anyway, a sad chapter all around for sure ... and an irony that, despite Guild's getting a black eye, there are so many good-sounding, very playable C models out there.

 

[chazmo]

When did I get elected President? Not that I don't deserve it.

 

[capnjuan]

When did I get elected President? Not that I don't deserve it.

At the end of the day, it's the conduct of the gray-market resellers that goes up sideways; in '09 all but concealing the lack of warranty and then soap-suds about how much fixing - if any - was done by who(m?): " ... I had my luthier look this one over and he fixed all the cosmetic boo-boos..." This year - magically - all the discounted Cs have been to the reclaimer and are now 're-manufactured'. :shock: :shock: Really? The 2010 discounted models sell for the same as the 2009s did; so where is the cost and shipping for the reclamation?

The short of it is that it apparently doesn't matter if it new or stamped used:... You can call me Ray ... or you can call me Jay ...

As long as I don't have to sing the Guild Fight Song at the Guild Pep Rallies, give the Guild Salute, and can still wear my LTG Beaver Lodge hat, you'd be okay with me :wink:

 

[acoustic59]

Thanks Capnjuan and Chazmo, good advice from you both. I will let you know how it all went down.........
-A59

 

[goldleaf]

Hello all, this my first post to this site so bear with me if I am unfamiliar with all the processes. Regarding the Guild, "Contemporary Series", I managed to buy a CO-2C, CV-1C and a Willy Porter Signature Model. I have owned them for about 1 1/2 years and I have to say the Willy Porter Model is my favorite of all my guitars. I still play my other Contemporary guitars and am satisfied with all of them. They all have "used" stamped on the back of the headstock. As far as I can tell, I am the first person to own or at least play these axe's. I take any guitar I by to my luither to have it checked out and usually have the action lowered. All 3 needed mininal adjusting for string height, but my luthier was impressed with the sound, sustain and quality of wood and construction of all the Contemporary Series guitars I have brought in to him to set up. I don't know if I am just lucky and got good guitars from the Tacoma factory... They come with really nice cases also. Mine all came with a "put in on yourself" pick guard as part of the package and the Willy Porter came with an extra bone bridge for different tunings. I own a Martin and Blueridge and like both of them also. I would not let my Willy Porter go but would consider updating my CO and CV models if I could find a new or used guitar that sets my sail, but the last thing I need is another Ax, the wife is pretty understanding but she has her limits and I have reached it. One or two have to go before another one find it's way into my house. That's my little story and I'm sticking with it. Gary (goldleaf)

 

[Scratch]

Welcome aboard goldleaf; pics?

Nice to hear a good rendition concerning 'used' late Tacoma Guilds. I probably own the most expensive $900 CV-1 out there. Sure put more into mine than I had planned to make it right, but thanks to an expert luthier, it is definitely right now. :lol: It's also the prettiest guitar I own...

 

[goldleaf]

Scratch, thanks for the hello. I did forget to mention I also own a Tacoma A/E w/cutaway and soundhole where it is normally placed. I will get some pic's going. I'm at work now and don't have access to what pic's I have. I do need to her some good shots of all my guitars as I do plan on clearing out 3 or 4 in the next 6 months or so. Then I will think about getting a Taylor, maybe a 314 or something reasonable just to have the narrow, easy to play neck, or so they say, to back fill my G.A.S. issue after letting 3 or 4 of my current guitars go.

 

[taabru45]

Scratch, thanks for the hello. I did forget to mention I also own a Tacoma A/E w/cutaway and soundhole where it is normally placed. I will get some pic's going. I'm at work now and don't have access to what pic's I have. I do need to her some good shots of all my guitars as I do plan on clearing out 3 or 4 in the next 6 months or so. Then I will think about getting a Taylor, maybe a 314 or something reasonable just to have the narrow, easy to play neck, or so they say, to back fill my G.A.S. issue after letting 3 or 4 of my current guitars go.

If you want to stick with Guild and get a small neck..check out the D16 0r D17...you can get a high gloss one, with a neck of 1 5/8" at the neck....a bit too small for me but it new owner loved it....lovely guitar too. Steffan

 

[goldleaf]

Scratch, I would definitely like to get a new Guild after I sell or trade several of my Contemporary Series for the D-16 or D-17 you mentioned. At some point I would like to get a moderate priced Taylor, probably used, to round out my guitar collection. Gary

 

[poser]

Gary,
Thanks for the information about your CO and CV guitars. Did you buy them from afar (i.e. eBay) or were you able to check them out first?
I've been yearning for one of those, but have been reluctant to gamble with an eBay buy.

 

[goldleaf]

Poser, The first one I bought the CO-2C I got from "Musicians friend" as Needs Repair!, It had a crack on the side right along a grain line. My luthier repaired if for $150 and it plays fine althugh you can still see where the crack was because it has the high gloss cellulose finish which would require sanding and painting by someone who has that capability. Although it is only consmetic it still bugs me. My other two were bought through a dealer on E-Bay who I came to trust very much. I also bought my Tacoma acoustic/electric w/soundhole in the normal position from him. If there is even the slightest scratch he mentions it and shows a picture of it so you know exactly what you are getting. My Willy Porter Signature Model is in Perfect condition and it plays and sounds as good as any guitar I've seen under the $5.000 price range. It is hard for me to think of another guitar in the 2K to 4K price range that I would exchange for, but I am always looking for that special all wood w/electric and cutaway that sounds and plays so good you have just got to have it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another guitar from this dealer who I have come to know over the last 2 years and have bout 4 guitars from, sight unseen. If you don't like it for any reason you can return it, no questions for the first 30 days for cash back or credit for something else he has in stock. Gary (goldleaf)