Guild the underdog - why?

[Ridgemont]

Thank you for that observation, although I thought someone in the notorious finish thread believed that you could "repair" a poly finish although doing so was difficult and required knowledge and skill.

I do not dare open that thread to search for the claim. But based on the polymer finish not dissolving/loosening with warm organic solvent, I do not think one could reseal a cut or break. Maybe another adhesive could adhere to the finish and a very good luthier could perform the work with minimal cosmetic damage. But for that work that good, you would probably pay a good amount.

Of course, that raises the question: Is a GAD purchased today likely to be in the hands of a player who recognizes the need for a neck reset and values the instrument enough to have it done when it becomes necessary? Given the number of computers I have retired over the years, I can at least imagine that I would replace, rather than repair, a guitar that was never intended to occupy an upscale niche.

Hard to say. Maybe not in 20 years, but what about 80? Stella guitars were junkers in the '30s and people put good money into restoring them now. One of the best guitars for the blues. But Stellas have historical value considering so much influential music was played on them.

 

[chazmo]

Ridgy, you make an excellent point about serviceability and future value. Maybe I shouldn't've pulled a Townsend on that POS First Act guitar that we got for my son a couple of years ago. Ah, well... there was no chance in hell of that lasting a century, let alone a couple of years.

 

[Emilio]

Wow, i love this thread!

I should go and get myself some popcorn.

 

[Frosty]

Not sure I understand your point, frono. Here is what I wrote:

I think the US made Guild guitars are competitively priced - not being given away, but comparable to what else I see.

A brandy-new D-50 selling for $2k USD seems about right in this market when compared to rosewood dreads by the other guys.

As far as being a guy who "doesn't like cheap guitars"... far be I from that! If you mean price, that is. Let me tell you again about that Kay jumbo. I would not discourage someone from buying a GAD if they liked it and it fit their budget - not at all! I just don't think they are representative of what this geezer thinks of when Guild comes to mind. Really... some of the best guitar necks I have encountered were on a '60 Aristocrat, a '70s S-100, some old X-50 and a '71 F-50R. They felt "handmade in an otherwise imperfect world". The GAD neck did not measure up, IMO, and to me dilutes the name Guild. Why not call the line Squire, for example?

Not trying to convince anybody of anything... just too much time on the lunch hour.

 

[fronobulax]

Thank you for that observation, although I thought someone in the notorious finish thread believed that you could "repair" a poly finish although doing so was difficult and required knowledge and skill.

I do not dare open that thread to search for the claim. But based on the polymer finish not dissolving/loosening with warm organic solvent, I do not think one could reseal a cut or break. Maybe another adhesive could adhere to the finish and a very good luthier could perform the work with minimal cosmetic damage. But for that work that good, you would probably pay a good amount.

OK. I think we are in agreement. It (probably) can be done but not everyone will be able to do it and those who do it would probably command a premium for doing so because of the special skills and knowledge required. I don't want to look at that thread either, even with Search.

 

[fronobulax]

Misinformation is a major current issue that happened as a result of Fender releasing the GAD line. I have seen numerous Craigslist/Ebay adds for Westerly Guild guitars. The seller typically draws the distinction that their 15 year old guitar is a real deal Guild as opposed to the new Guilds that are all made in China. This of course is false, but on the used market, it is not a prerequisite to be an informed seller or buyer.

Good point, although Guild sowed the seeds of the problem long ago when they would change specs but not model numbers. It is probably not worth fixing in a marketing strategy that is focused on new sales rather than general brand awareness but...

Of course, some of the blame falls on sellers who either don't really do any research or are deliberately trying to confuse the issue.

That said, I note the following F-30 related model numbers on the Guild web site and it looks like new production does have unique identification with the model number.

GSR F-30 Rosewood
F-30 Aragon
F-30 Standard
F-30CE Standard
F-30R Standard
F-30RCE Standard
GAD-30
GAD-30PCE
GAD-30R

 

[Ridgemont]

Good point, although Guild sowed the seeds of the problem long ago when they would change specs but not model numbers. It is probably not worth fixing in a marketing strategy that is focused on new sales rather than general brand awareness but...

I tend to think there is a direct correlation between new sales and general brand awareness. If a consumer has a poor opinion of a brand, they will purchase a product from the competitor. This is an issue that Guild should somehow address.

How about an advertising campaign with the theme "Hey it's us Guild. Yes we are still around and not made in China."

 

[adorshki]

Thank you for that observation, although I thought someone in the notorious finish thread believed that you could "repair" a poly finish although doing so was difficult and required knowledge and skill.

Poly CANNOT be "patched" and "blended in", it virtually requires complete refinishing; NCL is easily "repaired".

On a side note, the GAD was the most impressive guitar in that price range.

Thank you. I have been trying to see whether someone would make that statement or say that they did not compete at their price point.

I don't actually recall ANY references to poor fret fitment or finish flaws that you mentioned, on GADs. I assume you were speaking "hypothetically" to illustrate your point.
My fuzzy memory indicates that very few of the people who have a philosophical antipathy towards an asian-built Guild have actually owned or even played one.
It does go deep into the concept of brand perception as you say.
When I bought my D25, I DEFINITELY wanted an American built instrument. The flat-top steel string guitar was invented in the good ol' USA, So it HAD to be American. Period. And it HAD to be new. And Guild WAS the underdog brand. I really didn't want to pay Martin or Gibson price and then be perceived as somenone who bought based on "what everybody else buys". I was replacing a Japanese made Fender acoustic. When I bought the Fender it was based on price, and I DIDN'T care if it was Japanese. BY happy coincidence Fender had recently acquired Guild when I started shopping. So I would say I fit your "upscaling" progression perfectly. BUT, if the neck on that D25 hadn't been the best one I'd ever felt in my life, I MIGHT have wound up with something different.
And note, I bought ALL my Guilds new for a some very specific reasons:
I want to watch the guitar age from new.
I don't want any hidden surprises discovered in a used instrument. (except money maybe.)
I want a warranty.
I DO think GADs are serving that purpose of being an "entry" to the Guild brand, but I do understand why some people feel it "dilutes" the brand name.
I suspect if Harley Davidson put their name on a line of Chinese-built motorcycles, even if all the engineering was their own, nobody would buy 'em.

Not sure I understand your point, frono. Here is what I wrote:
I think the US made Guild guitars are competitively priced - not being given away, but comparable to what else I see.
A brandy-new D-50 selling for $2k USD seems about right in this market when compared to rosewood dreads by the other guys.
As far as being a guy who "doesn't like cheap guitars"... far be I from that!

Frosty I think it did get by him. I caught it. You were trying to give an unbiased review of the GADs. And pointing they're priced right for their niche. Just like the New Hartfords are for theirs.

 

[twocorgis]

My $.02 on GAD "Guilds"

I don't like them because I think it cheapens the brand, much like the inexpensive Mexican-made Martins cheapen their brand. I'm not knocking Guild for making them, I just think that they should have give them a different name, like...lessee...how about "Madeira by Guild". There; that's original! :roll:

The other reason I don't like them is that I'm a big believer in buying American whenever possible, which gets increasingly harder every year. It's already next to impossible to buy US-made clothes and electronics, and many other items as well. Until a couple of years ago, it was awful hard to find a US-made car worth considering, and no, I don't consider US-made Honda, Toyotas, and Nissans to be "true" American cars. They may be made here, but that's not ultimately where the money goes, which is bad for the multiplier effect back here in the states. Now that there are some truly worthy American cars, I think everyone should drive one, but hey, it's your money...

Call me a xenophobe if you like, but guitars are a uniquely American invention, and building them is something that American companies still do far better than anyone else in the world, and that's why you'll never see an Asian-made guitar in my house. I'm sure some of them are perfectly fine, just not for me.

 

[chazmo]

Sandy, I think they were making guitars in Italy and Spain long before craftsmen came to the states to start making 'em here. I.e., I think calling the guitar a "uniquely American invention" is not correct, athough perhaps the modern flattop is.

 

[twocorgis]

Sandy, I think they were making guitars in Italy and Spain long before craftsmen came to the states to start making 'em here. I.e., I think calling the guitar a "uniquely American invention" is not correct, athough perhaps the modern flattop is.

Right you are Chaz. I should have specified flattop.

 

[Ridgemont]

Sandy, I think they were making guitars in Italy and Spain long before craftsmen came to the states to start making 'em here. I.e., I think calling the guitar a "uniquely American invention" is not correct, athough perhaps the modern flattop is.

Right you are Chaz. I should have specified flattop.

I always thought a steel string guitar was an American thing.

 

[adorshki]

Sandy, I think they were making guitars in Italy and Spain long before craftsmen came to the states to start making 'em here. I.e., I think calling the guitar a "uniquely American invention" is not correct, athough perhaps the modern flattop is.

Right you are Chaz. I should have specified flattop.

I always thought a steel string guitar was an American thing.

Why I said "flat-top steel string guitar". BOTH Elements TOGETHER :

The flat-top steel string guitar was invented in the good ol' USA, So it HAD to be American. Period. And it HAD to be new.

Yeah I know, it was buried in the middle of a book. :lol:

 

[littlesongs]

For the record, I am not a xenophobe. However, I did say a few things that might be construed that way. I hope that this clears up my position.

More often than not, when American companies outsource manufacturing, high quantity at a low price is more important than high quality at a fair price. Remember the old chestnut about silk purses and pig ears? An overseas guitar maker is only ever as good as the design, materials and the skill level of the workers.

Japan makes great guitars. Some of the very best Gibson products to come out of the Norlin era have the name "Orville" on the headstock. These instruments were made for the domestic market. They have been fetching ever higher prices outside of the country because word got out about their incredible playability, fit and finish.

This [edit: Japanese] ever evolving and highly refined home market has spawned some of the finest recording gear, synthesizers, samplers, drum machines, microphones and anything else you can imagine on the technological side of music for the last three or four decades. The Japanese can be proud of their musical achievements and are free to enjoy them too.

[edit: comments about Chinese politics removed]

 

[chazmo]

I'm going to have to jump in here and stop this. I've edited littlesongs' post and I'm throwing out a warning that we've veered into politics and we need to stop that before this goes off the rails.

Please stay focused on the guitars.

 

[hojo199]

I suspect if Harley Davidson put their name on a line of Chinese-built motorcycles, even if all the engineering was their own, nobody would buy 'em.

Exactly! And HD wouldn't do it!

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

I posted some thoughts on this subject that somehow didn't get posted, so I will try again.

About 2 years ago, I purchased a new GAD JF-48 online.
When I got it, I was happy with the guitar except for a few issues.

First, there was a funny over tone on the high E string that was very annoying.
I had a Luthier check it out and he said that it was inherent to the guitar.
I had a different Tech look at it and he did a little work on the nut, which helped but never totally fixed the problem.
The tone of the guitar was nice but not up to what I had come to expect from a Guild.

This guitar had a sunburst finish that I never bonded with.

I found the guitar was too large for me to play comfortable sitting down.

After owning and playing it for over a year, I got tired of justifying that it was a Guild, even though it was not made in America.

Because of all of these issues, I chose to sell the guitar.

As I now look back, I see that I sold the guitar more because of peer pressure than any of the other issues.
My JF-48 wasn't accepted as a Guild and that bothered me.

I own a Blueridge guitar. I have been told that it was made in the same building that my GAD was made in.
I'm very happy with the Blueridge, for what it is.
It's a Chinese copy of a Martin guitar.

I have to wonder now, if the GAD JF-48 would have been given a different name other than Guild, would I still have it?
I still have the Blueridge.

So how does this all fit into the topic about Guild being the underdog?
It's my opinion that if Guild would have had better marketing, advertisement and product placement over the years, it's name would be better known and Guild wouldn't be the underdog it is today.
Adding the GAD line and pushing them as Guilds didn't help the name at all.
When people talk about the Big 3 in American made guitars
Guild isn't mentioned.
Thats a shame but a reality.
Guild guitars are as good or better than Martin, Taylor or Gibson.
Too bad that only us underdogs will ever know it.

 

[fronobulax]

About 2 years ago, I purchased a new GAD JF-48 online.
When I got it, I was happy with the guitar except for a few issues.

First, there was a funny over tone on the high E string that was very annoying.
I had a Luthier check it out and he said that it was inherent to the guitar.
I had a different Tech look at it and he did a little work on the nut, which helped but never totally fixed the problem.
The tone of the guitar was nice but not up to what I had come to expect from a Guild.

This guitar had a sunburst finish that I never bonded with.

I found the guitar was too large for me to play comfortable sitting down.

Thank you. A couple of these (size, color) are obviously personal preference items. Tone not meeting expectations could be a function of the "price point" or something that happened because it was a GAD. The other items seem to me to be the kind of thing a retail dealer should address before selling the guitar. The fact that you were never completely satisfied is a little disturbing although that happens with guitars in all price ranges. Sometimes lemons get through. Thanks again.

 

[West R Lee]

I tried to tell'em Chaz......NEVER bring the dreaded "P" word into the LTG conversation. They just won't listen!!! :lol:

West

 

[littlesongs]

Hooray for the nameless faceless luthiers.

:lol: :lol: :lol: