Guild the underdog - why?

Taylor Martin Guild

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This is from the AGF.
It sums things up as I see it.

Ok, I pulled the trigger Friday afternoon. She just sounded so much better than everything else. The projection is great. I would play a guitar and then let the guitar tech play it and I would listen. This guitar just souned and projected great. So much louder than others, its a cannon. As I said it is new old stock, a 2006 model. I asked the people in the shop why it hasn't sold and they said b/c we have Martin. They said they would try to sell this guitar b/c it sounded so good and buyers wouldn't even listen to it and go to the Martins.

Until this mind set changes, Guilds will be hard to sell.
 

West R Lee

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Taylor Martin Guild said:
This is from the AGF.
It sums things up as I see it.

Ok, I pulled the trigger Friday afternoon. She just sounded so much better than everything else. The projection is great. I would play a guitar and then let the guitar tech play it and I would listen. This guitar just souned and projected great. So much louder than others, its a cannon. As I said it is new old stock, a 2006 model. I asked the people in the shop why it hasn't sold and they said b/c we have Martin. They said they would try to sell this guitar b/c it sounded so good and buyers wouldn't even listen to it and go to the Martins.

Until this mind set changes, Guilds will be hard to sell.

I assume he was referring to a Guild? I don't think the mind set will ever change TMG.......it's been that way for 60 years.

West
 

Christopher Cozad

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Reflections on underdogs...

[WARNING - Really, really looooong-winded]

In the mid-1980's, as the 'personal' computer industry (a unique concept back then, as business folks were connected to 'mainframe' behemoths via terminals) was taking shape, a well-known arcade game company entered the arena. With IBM (and it's clones) still delivering green and orange textual-driven experiences, Atari introduced an Apple Macintosh-like computer for a fraction of the price. The company's tag line was "Power Without the Price". The concept was simple: do what a Mac does and more, but do it for less cost. The computers were very well designed and inexpensive. They would sell well. They quickly garnered a loyal following - no - a cult-like following would be a better description. Atari ST owners loved their computers. As the company continued to deliver very cool technology, they appeared to make every marketing misstep possible. There was nothing wrong with the computers they produced, but they remained the underdog and eventually abandoned the product, much to the chagrin of a loyal band of devotees that persisted for decades after the product line was gone. 'Power without the Price' was an awesome concept until the product was no longer available.

Apple proved that just building a 'better' product and relying upon the masses to appreciate it does not always guaranteed market share. In head-to-head user comparisons from Apple's beginning, there have been many cases where the Mac experience was superior to a comparable alternative, and many times where that was not the case. Regardless, the alternatives maintained market share over the Mac. For years Apple remained the underdog. At the end of the '90's Apple introduced candy-colored Mac's and once again jolted the personal computer industry. Apple then introduced the iPod into an already existing mp3 market. Apple did not pioneer a technology but rather redefined it and, subsequently, dominated it. Cell phones were already a de facto communication commodity when Apple introduced the iPhone and, again, changed the game. Tablet PCs have been available for years and have remained largely marginal. Enter the iPad, and another market was redefined. Today, if you want one of the best computers money can buy you buy an Apple. To play off Atari's slogan, 'Power, and worth the price' would be apropos for Apple.

My experience with Guild only dates back to the beginning of the 1970's. I have no personal experience with the brand prior to that, other than what I hear and read. I visited my local music store and ordered my first Guild, an F50R, directly from the factory, sight unseen, from this catalog page:

Guild_Catalog_F50.png


Back then John Denver played a Guild. I loved how a mic'd Guild guitar sounded on his albums, and I saw and heard a mic'd Guild guitar in his concerts. That was good enough for me! I obtained a loan from my credit union and purchased the guitar. I had to wait for my guitar to be completed but, when it finally arrived, I was so very proud. It sounded exactly as I had hoped and dreamed it would. I took my Guild with me nearly everywhere I went and introduced it to everyone I met. I performed with that guitar up and down the West Coast of the USA from Alaska to Hawaii, and into Mexico. Over the years I played and owned other guitars (Martin, Gibson, Epiphone, Ovation, Yamaha, Mossman, Alvarez-Yairi, T-Haruo, Fender, Taylor, etc.). I played and owned other Guilds. Curiously, in all my travels I only met a handful of players who also owned Guilds. But I never heard from anyone, player or listener, who did not comment favorably on how well a Guild guitar SOUNDED.

To me, *that* is the driving factor behind a half-century old guitar brand, namely; Guild guitars consistently sound GOOD! Martin has that reputation, and so they should. Gibson (acoustics) do NOT consistently sound good across models and years. Some sound great and others are duds! Fender acoustics certainly do not have that reputation! Taylor guitars, though relatively consistent, are such an acquired taste (when describing Taylors, I prefer the moniker 'brittle'), as are a myriad of other brands. Some are fantastic, others are so-so. Yet Guild remains consistent.

But Guild remains an underdog, a marginal consideration. I don't believe this is simply for the lack of marketing effort(s), however well or ill-timed those may have been. Marketing is a very complex issue. 'Build it and they will come' is as meaningful as 'Throw a bunch of money at our latest campaign'. In the end, the public judges your efforts with their dollars. The current 'Made to be Played' is a clever marketing slogan, really clever, and I like it. But I think it is missing a fundamental element; the tangible tonal quality of the brand! I would wish it possible to re-address the audience with a 'Now Hear This...' campaign. At this point one would almost conclude that if only the masses could be introduced to the *sound* of a Guild guitar, that could be sufficient to significantly increase public awareness and demand for the brand. After all, it was for me, wasn't it. Or was it?.

Consider the 'power' of perception:
Install a 'quacky' piezo pickup under the saddle of nearly any acoustic guitar, run it through a quality preamp with a notch filter, crank up the volume and blast the crowd's favorite song(s) accompanied by that same crowd's favorite star. My hypothesis: For the budding guitarists in the crowd, the takeaway message will be, 'I LOVE and HAVE TO BUY that {brand} guitar'.

Frankly, to generate purchasing mass hysteria you *have* to put a Guild in the hands of your buying public's favorite artists. That is obviously not the FMIC marketing department's objective.

Does the company wish to target those discerning ears that only value high-quality instruments? Those ears are usually paying hefty sums for their acoustic guitars, whether the makers are well-known or boutique builders. Yet Guilds remain very inexpensive, by comparison. There is a simple price-point phenomenon at work, here. While some brag about their ability to pick up a guitar in a pawn shop for $158, this crowd is beating their chest over dropping $17k for an instrument. It is difficult to sell into snobbery, and that comes with it's own price.

FMIC's recent decision to diversify the line, with the higher-cost 'Traditional' models being distinguished from the lower-cost 'Standard' ones is interesting to me. Is the brand demonstrating schizophrenia, or desperation, or is it reaching out to a broader audience as other well-regarded / well-loved brands have done?

Will Guild remain the underdog? Will it go the way of Atari? Will it alter course, perhaps re-define a niche, and take on the mystique of Apple?

Whichever way it goes, I am proud to say I am a Guild owner for 35 years and am still investing in a brand that consistently delivers. May Guild live forever!

Christopher
 

CA-35

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Chris I don't know what you do for a living but you should be a writer.
Re;
To me, *that* is the driving factor behind a half-century old guitar brand, namely; Guild guitars consistently sound GOOD! Martin has that reputation, and so they should. Gibson (acoustics) do NOT consistently sound good across models and years. Some sound great and others are duds! Fender acoustics certainly do not have that reputation! Taylor guitars, though relatively consistent, are such an acquired taste (when describing Taylors, I prefer the moniker 'brittle'), as are a myriad of other brands. Some are fantastic, others are so-so. Yet Guild remains consistent.
Yet Guild remains consistent! The understatement of the year!
Martins are superb we all agree, but not every one. Gibsons are phenomenal, nobody would contest, but not every one. Guild consistently produced on the whole an equal, and slightly more durable, more consistent guitar than publicly acknowledged. It does'nt mean that persons who purchased a Martin or Gibson did wrong, on the contrary, they just have a different checklist. I still hope to attain a Martin D-45 one day. But my heart stays with Guild. Plus I'm a jaded old fart.
 

Yoko Oh No

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Why I Own a Guild

By Yoko Oh No

Here's why I own a Guild: I walked into my local music shop in 2006, lookin to fix me up with a used acoustic. They had three used guitars in very nice condition...a Martin d-28, a Gibson J45, and a Guild d-50. I played em all and the Guild simply sounded better and felt more comfortable than the others (which sounded very nice also) but, the Martin was a bit on the trebly side for my likin, and the Gibson had no balance or volume and an uncomfortable neck. Also, the Martin was $1800, the Gibby was $1500, and the lowly Guild was in the low rent district...they were asking $795 and sold it to me for $700.

It also might help to know that I never owned a pair of Calvin Klein jeans, or a Members Only jacket, and you'd be hard pressed to find a polo player on any shirts I own. I do, however, have a wonderful wife, great kids, a dog that loves me more than any of them, and a very nice guitar that ain't goin anywhere.

Oh...and I don't particually care for Starbucks either.

JEANS_CALVIN_KLEIN_MODELLO_CMA097%20(1).jpg


Jacobcalexico.jpg

YON
 

taabru45

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If you see any more D50s for $700....give me a call.....smokin' price.. nice smile too.. :D ...Steffan
 

Emilio

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One of the posts in this thread pointed out that Guild is looked upon as a poor mans Martin in the states.
Is this actually true?
Here in sweden most players would probably say otherwise.
To me it's one of the four big ones made in the us.
 

chazmo

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Emilio said:
One of the posts in this thread pointed out that Guild is looked upon as a poor mans Martin in the states.
Is this actually true?
Here in sweden most players would probably say otherwise.
To me it's one of the four big ones made in the us.
Emilio,

I'd say it *was* true years ago. Guilds offered better value than roughly equivalent Martins.

I don't think it's true anymore. There are two factors:

1. Modern (US-built) Guilds are not produced in sufficient numbers to be compared with the big brands anymore. At least not in my opinion. This may change in the not too distant future, but it seems valid today. (US-built) Guild isn't even trying to make those comparisons now... Their target is to compete with some of the smaller companies that distribute in higher-end guitar shops, at least it was back in April 2010. They did have Gibson in their sights, though, as probably all the companies do.

2. Guild is no longer one company. Since they started putting the Guild name on acoustic headstocks made in the Pacific rim as well as Mexico, Guild is essentially two (or three) product lines. These other Guilds compete in a different space.

I will say that none of this is static. I know that US Guild has some "breakout" plans for the not too distant future, so I really hope (and believe) that this discussion will get clearer and clearer as time goes on. The one thought I'd like to leave you with is that the folks in New Hartford really want Guild to be successful. I think they've done a great job honoring the brand and bringing their extensive background to bear on the product line (i.e., Guild's in good hands).
 

fronobulax

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Wow. Missed a lot. But probably very little that is new in this post...

Someone real early on claimed that Kamen owned Guild. Not true. Possible slip of the tongue or just confusion since Ovations were produced at the New Hartford plant because FMIC now owns both Kamen and Guild.

Whether we agree with the marketing strategy or not there will be no American made Guilds in Guitar Center or Best Buy until FMIC produces more of them, probably by an order of magnitude. Remember that the best estimates of New Hartford production are less than 5,000 instruments per year. The current marketing strategy seems to be designed to make low production a virtue and appeal to the niche buyer of boutique guitars. People who buy those instruments are not generally impressed by celebrity endorsements and are comfortable "seeking out" product.

There are a a number of people who are not yet convinced that New Hartford Guilds are "true" Guilds or the equal of Westerly instruments. They may change their minds once they can play a 10 year old NH Guild that has "opened up" but that won't happen for a few years.

The reasons many of us geezers bought our first Guild back in the '70's are somewhat irrelevant to today's market. As has been noted, many of us play instruments that don't even have a comparable model in production.

FMIC seems to have spent several years with no real plan of vision for the Guild brand. That time seems to be over.

The marketplace, in general, does not always reward the "best" product in the technical sense. That may go a long way to explain while Guild has low visibility even when the quality and price make them a good buy by almost any measure.

The fact that the stiffest competition for new Guilds is the vintage Guilds does not help the brand sell new product.

Putting the Guild label on GADs has certainly confused the marketplace.
 

Christopher Cozad

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fronobulax said:
...The reasons many of us geezers bought our first Guild back in the '70's are somewhat irrelevant to today's market. As has been noted, many of us play instruments that don't even have a comparable model in production...
Among those of us who who do, perhaps the remainder of the percentage of "somewhat irrelevant" is worth the marketing effort?

Regarding comparable models, I truly enjoy my vintage jumbo 6 an 12 strings. I have played and owned recent versions of those guitar models. They still sound great. Were I in the market for a new guitar, I would buy a Guild. For me, the Guild brand is sustaining it's reputation of being consistent.

Regarding somewhat irrelevant reasons for purchasing, I am actually thinking of several corollary reasons:


  • I want to impress a girl.
    An artist I admire is playing a particular brand of guitar, and I think if I own that brand I can be like them.
    I really like the sound of an instrument I have heard someone else play and would like to 'own' that sound.
    I want to impress a girl.

:wink:

fronobulax said:
...The fact that the stiffest competition for new Guilds is the vintage Guilds does not help the brand sell new product...
No argument from me. It is an interesting phenomenon, and I am sure it drives marketing berserk. If we could just get those folks on Antiques Roadshow to publicly value 30 and 40 year-old Guilds at Martin-comparable pricing...

Christopher
 

bluesypicky

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Christopher Cozad said:
If we could just get those folks on Antiques Roadshow to publicly value 30 and 40 year-old Guilds at Martin-comparable pricing...Christopher
Quick! Let's stack'em up before it happens! :evil:
 

cjd-player

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Christopher Cozad said:
Taylor guitars, though relatively consistent, are such an acquired taste (when describing Taylors, I prefer the moniker 'brittle'), as are a myriad of other brands.

Does the company wish to target those discerning ears that only value high-quality instruments?

This touches on the classic tone distinction that is often discussed over on AGF: Martin versus Taylor. Martin fans say a Taylor sounds too bright and has no bass, Taylor fans say a Taylor is balanced and a Martin has muddy bass. No right or wrong, just different preferences in the tone of a guitar.

Guilds are clearly in the Martin tone family, as many LTGers attest as they claim that their Guild kicked the butt of the comparable Martin when they bought it. Some of the more boutique guitars such as Huss & Dalton, Collins, and some private luthiers, are also in that family and are often viewed as up-scale Martins.

According to independent music instrument industry reports, for the past 2 years, Taylor has sold more acoustic guitars than Martin. So Martin is no longer number 1. What is interesting is that in the past two years Taylor has also sold more high-end guitars per year than ever before in their history. So that’s a lot of people voting with their $2000 - $4000+ that they prefer the Taylor tone, even in the bad economy.

I don’t know how the sales numbers would compare if you added the Huss & Dalton, Collins, and the other obvious Martin clones to the “Martin” sales numbers. Maybe no change, maybe the “Martins” would get a slight advantage. But I think the message is pretty clear that there are a lot of people willing to pay a lot of money for the Taylor type tone. Even premier luthier James Olsen’s $10,000+ guitars are frequently said to be balanced and bright– more like a Taylor than a Martin.

It is an interesting nod from Martin that their newest Performer Series guitars are now Taylor clones to try to capture some of that market.

So my point is that with Guild being in the “Martin tone family” they are in what appears to be a shrinking tone market rather than a growing tone market. Ultimately they may need to compete with Huss & Dalton, Collings, etc. as a boutique guitar maker, and you don’t see those guys muddying up their own markets by branding Chinese imports. I think part of the Guild problem is that they have a history of selling lower-priced guitars in the past (compared to comparable Martins and Gibsons) and a plethora of old used models floating around that sell at low prices because they were bought at low prices. So there is a historical perception of “low price” and so many people equate higher price with better. I think there is a natural reluctance and suspicion/distrust if looking at a guitar with a low-price history when you go shopping for a higher-end instrument. If you can be convinced to try it, you're surprised that it sounds good.
 

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I wonder why people actually buy a particular guitar. We all might say it is a list of priorities:
Tone
Playability
Body size/shape
Woods
Maker reputation
Exclusivity
Good $$$ deal
What my friends play
What will impress my future girlfriend
What my teacher plays
What fits in with my "scene" - Bluegrass, rock, jazz etc.
more I am sure.

Frankly while I put tone and playablility on top I am an American guitar snob and won't pick a guitar from other than Martin of Guild at this point. I sold off all my Gibsons, some because they disappointed me, my last one- a J185 that I loved- because I knew I could get good money for it over what I could get for my other stuff. I wish I kept it but was not a dream guitar, just very nice. I had 2 Taylors and won't get another, just not my cup of tea tonewise although they played well.
My crowd, my "scene" is old time music where I play mostly mandolin and clawhammer banjo. The guitar seen most often is a J-45 or a clone thereof- Huss and Dalton, quite a few Santa Cruz, or I show up with my GSR-F40 occasionally or my Redline J-45 close. Both of them get compliments (despite my playing not because of it)

To be truthful I'd have to say that half of my purchase decision on the Guild was the reputation of the maker.
I bought it on line so tone and playability were a crapshoot- there's no way you can buy on line and have those things as highest priority. They only enter into the decision after you get the guitar and try it out. The decision to purchase happened beforehand.
Second reason I bought a GSR F-40 was body size. I wanted a Grand Orchestra size guitar. My shoulder doesn't like Dreads, my ears don't generally like OMs- just a little too small for the power I want, so the Grand Orchestra- Martin sometimes says M or 0000- was what I wanted and the Guild filled the bill.
So- maker rep
Body size
Good deal - I thought I got a lot of guitar for the money.
Exclusivity- Guilds aren't common, but they are well known, and the GSR models will be rare. That makes me hope that if I ever asell it I might get good money for it making it a good investment (not a first priority but not left out of the equation either)
Fits in with my crowd.

With NH Guilds so rare in stores what sells them?
 

Frosty

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fronobulax said:
The marketplace, in general, does not always reward the "best" product in the technical sense. ....The fact that the stiffest competition for new Guilds is the vintage Guilds does not help the brand sell new product.

Two excellent points, frono'.

We call think of examples in the non-music world where the technically superior product was undone by the product that was marketed better or cheaper.

There's a lot of value in a used Guild - which is not to say a new Guild isn't a good guitar, but from a price/performance point of view, the old ones are more of a bargain.
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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Something that I have found interesting.

Put guitar players/buyers into catigories.
One group that is over 40 years old.
The other group that is under 40 years old.

The older players are more loyal to the older "traditional" Martin sound.
The younger players like the Taylor sound.
I put Guild in the class with the over 40 crowd.

Tonewood is getting more scarse every day.
Will tomorrows players even play on guitars made out of wood?
 
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