Guild the underdog - why?

[Emilio]

Tonewood is getting more scarse every day.
Will tomorrows players even play on guitars made out of wood?

i'd say yes. The craving for quallity, craftsmanship and sound is the foundation when we're talking about guitars and i don't see that it would change any time soon.

 

[6L6]

Back in 1964/5 I was a Freshman at the University of Colorado in Boulder.

I was an out-of-state student and got really lucky to be roomed with a guy from St Louis who was already a pro player on guitar and banjo. He taught me Travis picking and most of what I know on guitar.

Back in St Louis my roomy opened for folks like Dave Van Ronk and Rev. Gary Davis. It was from them that he learned the wonder of Guild guitars.

One day we hopped in his car and drove to a shop down the road in Golden (also made a stop at the Coors brewery...) to try out some Guilds. I remember falling in love with several new Guilds, but I lacked the coin to buy one (had to wait until 1974 before I finally got my D-40).

In my buddy's mind, Guild acoustics were the equal of ANY Martin guitar and better than many. In no way was a Guild a "poor man's Martin". I adopted that same view back then and I've seen nothing to make me change my mind.

I wish the folks in NH every success with the current line.

But I should add that I don't consider GAD's to be Guilds any more than Shenadoah's to be Martins.

6

'74 D-40
'06 D-55
'06 F-412
'97 Martin D-45V
'09 Martin D-35 Custom
'93 Martin D-41
'99 Collings D-1
'90 Ovation Model 1869 Custom Legend
'10 Takamine TAN16C
'03 Taylor 214

 

[hojo199]

Great topic. I have mixed feelings on it. For the most part, I love things the way they are. I own guitars that did not break me and are everything I ever wanted. I can not afford a sixties J50 or a pre-war HD28, but my '89 D30 does all of that. It kicks my J45 in the arse and gives my D28 a run for its money. My Taylor 12 string lives in Florida so I have a guitar to play when I visit my folks. My Guild J30-12 lives HERE with me so I can play it ALL the time.

So I don't care that John Mayer plays candy-ass little girly Martins. Let 'em. I play these Guilds.

Now, the "GAC" crap is a problem. My daughter's boy friend wanted to buy her a guitar for 500.00 and I volunteered to find one. I had a local dealer hold one of those GAC pieces of crap, so I could buy it. I played one chord and put it back. It is garbage. Gibson has Epiphone to sell such inferior plywood and capture that market. What I did was find '94 DV4 on Ebay for 460.00 -- a kick ass, balanced, beautiful guitar that the kid will own and play for years.

So, here is my take-away: the way things are, we can own great instruments and not do without food. Guild should develop an Epiphone for its plywood garbage and market their fine guitars to real players -- or not. I am fine the way things are.

 

[littlesongs]

Since you are from Sweden, how do you feel about the "new" Levin and Hagström?

Just like you said, there is little or even less left of the original instruments in the new Levin and Hagström.
I never did care for the old Hagström but the old Levin-guitar is a joy to play.
Levin was produced in the same town as I live in and for a short period they actually produced guitars with Martin.
To me it's pretty much the same as with the new Larson brothers guitars (another Swede but they immigrated to the states in the early years.)
Now they are produced somewhere i Europe but nothing of the great pedigree remains...

There still is a tradition of guitar making in Sweden today and if you are interested have a look at:
http://www.sandenguitars.com/eng/home.html
http://www.fredholmguitars.com/htmlfile ... out_me.htm
http://www.rasmussenguitars.com/?p=galleri&intId=1

Thanks for your insight. In spite of the sad state of the older brands, it is great to see the tradition of guitar building is still alive and well in Sweden.

 

[littlesongs]

Guild should develop an Epiphone...

Heck, they don't even have to trash an established quality brand like Gibson did.

 

[adorshki]

Guild should develop an Epiphone for its plywood garbage and market their fine guitars to real players -- or not. I am fine the way things are.

Just to keep things accurate the GAD's are in fact all solid woods. Just checked Guild's website to verify.
In my HUMBLE opinion Guild does NOT need to make plywood guitars. 8)

 

[Taylor Martin Guild]

I don't think that marketing the GAD line under the Guild name was a good idea.
I see a lot of Craigs List and Ebay adds for Guilds and the adds don't go on to say that the guitars are GAD Guilds that are made in China.
This won't help the Guild name at all.

I'm not bashing GAD guitars.
I had one for a while and it was one of the best Pac Rim made guitars that I have ever played.
My point is simply that it is confusing to people that are new to Guilds and some of them are less than happy after the sale, when they find out that the guitar isn't American made.

With the cost of new Guilds right there with Martins and Taylors now, I hope that Guild will be able to survive.

 

[hojo199]

Guild should develop an Epiphone for its plywood garbage and market their fine guitars to real players -- or not. I am fine the way things are.

Just to keep things accurate the GAD's are in fact all solid woods. Just checked Guild's website to verify.
In my HUMBLE opinion Guild does NOT need to make plywood guitars. 8)

Come to think of it, you are right. They are not plywood -- might as well be though. The guitar I played sounded like a toy....

 

[RussB]

I don't think that marketing the GAD line under the Guild name was a good idea.

I agree wholeheartedly. It dilutes the brand

 

[West R Lee]

One of the posts in this thread pointed out that Guild is looked upon as a poor mans Martin in the states.
Is this actually true?
Here in sweden most players would probably say otherwise.
To me it's one of the four big ones made in the us.

Guild used to be the "poor man's Martin", but not anymore......very pricey in my opinion. And TMG, I don't think Guild will survive.....and it gives me no pleasure to say that.

West

 

[fronobulax]

I don't think that marketing the GAD line under the Guild name was a good idea.

I agree wholeheartedly. It dilutes the brand

Since this seems to be unquestioned gospel around here, how so? In particular how is the "Guild brand" being defined? How much of that definition rests on past achievements and how much is relavent to today's market for new product?

If a company wishes position itself as having something for everyone at all price points then the conventional wisdom is to use separate brands. Cadillac and Chevrolet, or Acura and Honda, for example. However the Starbucks success with Starbucks Via certainly suggests it is possible to use the flagship name on what might be perceived as the inferior product and succeed.

So, if the Guild brand image includes having 'something for everyone' at all price points and the Guild brand manager is thinking outside of the box then why not put the Guild badge on the 'inferior' instruments? Billy graduates from his starter "finger slicer" guitar, buys a GAD, feels he has made a step up and looks to a Standard or Traditional series when he is ready for the next step? Or maybe Billy is a dreamer and buys a GAD first because he really wants a Traditional but will settle for what his budget can afford as long as it has that Guild badge.

I know, as a consumer, that when I buy Starbucks Via I am getting what I consider to be an inferior product and I am OK with that because I am saving time and money. So when I buy a GAD because my budget is $700 I know I am getting an "inferior" product but I am OK with that because I am saving money.

Since I am up on a soapbox and know I make a good target, let me note what I consider the biggest pitfall with this branding strategy for FMIC. The strategy works because it is targeted at consumers who buy new product. However, the biggest competition for the GADs are used Guilds. Because the marketplace seems to undervalue used Guilds, the best Guild for the buck at almost any price point is going to be the used one. That said, the problem is not insurmountable because car companies deal with it all of the time, but it is an issue.

Sorry for the rant. I find GAD bashing an interesting phenomenon. I understand those who do because at the core they are xenophobic. I understand those who don't like "cheap" guitars. I understand that some folks are just gonna hate. But I keep feeling there are other reasons out there that I don't understand.

 

[geoguy]

I'll have to try a GAD sometime . . . like Frono, I don't quite understand the hard feelings toward them.

But, some of us in the US (myself included) are tired of having few choices re: purchase of Asian goods. For that reason alone, I find a Made in USA guitar appealing. And I happen to enjoy Guild's products (based on samples from Westerly, Tacoma, & New Hartford).

Given the quality of the guitars that they are making in New Hartford, I'm betting that Guild will in fact do well. They're just building their business back up in affordable increments.

 

[Frosty]

Eight pages... will this make nine?!

Don't be too quick to bash plywood guitars... I have a 50 year old ladder braced Kay jumbo, with a 26" scale, that'll put the blues in your country blues!

I think the US made Guild guitars are competitively priced - not being given away, but comparable to what else I see.

I also agree with those that think GAD should have been a separate label. I recently played a very fine sounding new GADF30 (not sure of the model number). Fine sounding, yes. Traditional Guild feel to the neck... no, not in my opinion. Very best fretwork, as found on that D-55 hanging beside it... no, not in my opinion. So, it seems to me, that it's not only really cheap man power - but also a few other things that make the GAD guitars less expensive. What will that GAD look and sound like in 40 years - likely I won't be around to find out. But my 40 year old Westerly, with original frets, is going strong.

 

[fronobulax]

But, some of us in the US (myself included) are tired of having few choices re: purchase of Asian goods.

But that would be a political veer... :wink:

I recently played a very fine sounding new GADF30 (not sure of the model number). Fine sounding, yes. Traditional Guild feel to the neck... no, not in my opinion. Very best fretwork, as found on that D-55 hanging beside it... no, not in my opinion. So, it seems to me, that it's not only really cheap man power - but also a few other things that make the GAD guitars less expensive. What will that GAD look and sound like in 40 years - likely I won't be around to find out. But my 40 year old Westerly, with original frets, is going strong.

A GAD F-30 with case has a MSRP of $1,099.99. Did you, by any chance compare it to a comparable Taylor or Martin? (I've looked at both web sites but other than not finding too many instruments with a MSRP under $1,100, I didn't find much that I understood to be comparable). Your comments fall into what I called "doesn't like "cheap" guitars" above. As such no one in their right mind would waste marketing effort to sell you a GAD.

Imagine that you want a guitar. You want a new guitar. You have $700 burning a hole in your pocket. Do you buy a GAD in spite of the neck feel, the imprecise fretwork and the finish sloppiness that others have reported or do you buy a Taylor, Martin, Epiphone or whatever else the sales floor may have on hand, or do you walk out and mow some more lawns until you can afford a Standard Series Guild?

For Guild to survive as a viable business they have to sell new product. They are not going to sell new product to folks who compare everything to vintage Guilds and find the new product lacking in some way. Since I believe that the GAD decision effects the viability of the brand, I am interested in whether GAD bashing reflects an inferior product for the target market or whether it reflects the strong and informed opinions of folks who are not in the target market themselves. Target market in this case is someone who wants a new guitar with a street price under $1,000. That is probably not most people on LTG unless we are buying instruments for someone else.

I can see LTG in 50 years...

Yeah. Frosty got me my Guild. I wanted a shiny new one from the Guitar Center but he didn't think too much of them. He went out and found me a D-25 made in some place called Westerly. I hated it. It was beat up and it smelled like smoke. I didn't have the heart to tell him I didn't appreciate his gift, so I just sucked up and started playing. Pretty soon I stopped looking at it and just listened to the ringing tone and deep bass. I got used to the smell, and I still have it, too.

 

[Ridgemont]

What will that GAD look and sound like in 40 years - likely I won't be around to find out.

One thing I recently noticed about the GADs is that they finish the whole guitar in polyurethane. What I mean is they finish the guitar after the neck has been attached. This will make for a big messy disaster when it comes time for a neck reset considering polyurethane can not be repaired.

 

[6L6]

I'm off to Starbucks!

6

 

[Ridgemont]

Misinformation is a major current issue that happened as a result of Fender releasing the GAD line. I have seen numerous Craigslist/Ebay adds for Westerly Guild guitars. The seller typically draws the distinction that their 15 year old guitar is a real deal Guild as opposed to the new Guilds that are all made in China. This of course is false, but on the used market, it is not a prerequisite to be an informed seller or buyer.

 

[Ridgemont]

Someone should go back to the archives and count how many threads there are just like this one. How many of us were introduced to Guild through the GAD line? Don't be shy, just raise your hand. I sure was. Much like Frono said, I had $700 burning in my pocket. I wanted the F30 but could not afford $2K. I bought the GAD30 and was a happy as a clam. I eventually moved up the ladder to my D25 and my F30 thanks to the used market. So, I had no need for the GAD and sold it to a family whose daughter was starting guitar lessons.

On a side note, the GAD was the most impressive guitar in that price range.

 

[fronobulax]

What will that GAD look and sound like in 40 years - likely I won't be around to find out.

One thing I recently noticed about the GADs is that they finish the whole guitar in polyurethane. What I mean is they finish the guitar after the neck has been attached. This will make for a big messy disaster when it comes time for a neck reset considering polyurethane can not be repaired.

Thank you for that observation, although I thought someone in the notorious finish thread believed that you could "repair" a poly finish although doing so was difficult and required knowledge and skill.

Of course, that raises the question: Is a GAD purchased today likely to be in the hands of a player who recognizes the need for a neck reset and values the instrument enough to have it done when it becomes necessary? Given the number of computers I have retired over the years, I can at least imagine that I would replace, rather than repair, a guitar that was never intended to occupy an upscale niche.

 

[fronobulax]

On a side note, the GAD was the most impressive guitar in that price range.

Thank you. I have been trying to see whether someone would make that statement or say that they did not compete at their price point.