F-212 feedback please?
- Thread starter bluesypicky
- Start date
bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
Allrighty then, I decided on breaking the suspense and showing y'all the extent of the damage....
The uglier first: this nasty crack, about 6 inches in length.
Then the case of "Danko-itis" as referred by CJ and that in the euphoria of the acquisition I omitted to describe....:
A "vue d'ensemble" :
What's funny about this whole thing is that the back which is usually the most scratched part on any used guitar, by belt buckles, shirt buttons etc... is almost in mint condition (and probably will be after a little guitar polish care) as seen here:
Gotta love that big seamless piece of mahogany
So tell me what you think? The crack will get fixed that's for sure (and thanks again CJ for the contact you gave me for that), what I am pondering is whether or not to refinish top and side, as I read so many scary accounts of refinished guitars, and I really don't want to loose any of the fabulous sound it has now.....
The uglier first: this nasty crack, about 6 inches in length.
Then the case of "Danko-itis" as referred by CJ and that in the euphoria of the acquisition I omitted to describe....:
A "vue d'ensemble" :
What's funny about this whole thing is that the back which is usually the most scratched part on any used guitar, by belt buckles, shirt buttons etc... is almost in mint condition (and probably will be after a little guitar polish care) as seen here:
Gotta love that big seamless piece of mahogany
So tell me what you think? The crack will get fixed that's for sure (and thanks again CJ for the contact you gave me for that), what I am pondering is whether or not to refinish top and side, as I read so many scary accounts of refinished guitars, and I really don't want to loose any of the fabulous sound it has now.....
dogberry
Member
bluesypicky said:Time for an update!
I will post pics of the F 212 later (Don't despair Southern :roll: ), or even better, I will wait until the crack is repaired and post before and after pics..... I played it all evening and into the night until my hands started to hurt (litterally), I guess I forgot how wide these 12 strings necks were! But the sound is so rewarding that I had to get in actual physical pain to finally put it down.
WAY TO GO!!!! Welcome to the F 212 club!
Dogberry
Hi Pascal; it is odd that the back is in such good condition. On refinishing ... the common wisdom is that it ought to be reserved for guitars in very poor condition. Whether yours is that far gone ... that's pretty much a matter of opinion. You bought this guitar so well that in one sense, you can put some money in it with a reasonable expectation of getting most of it back.
If you do get the top refinished and if they use nitrocellulose, it will take a while for the top to regain the flexibility that it has now. The new finish will tighten it up considerably and most people think that even new guitars with a fresh nitro finish ... it takes a while for the top to become responsive. For my part, I'd say that if you can't get it done in nitro and considering that the damage is limited to just two spots, that you shouldn't get it re-done at all. John
If you do get the top refinished and if they use nitrocellulose, it will take a while for the top to regain the flexibility that it has now. The new finish will tighten it up considerably and most people think that even new guitars with a fresh nitro finish ... it takes a while for the top to become responsive. For my part, I'd say that if you can't get it done in nitro and considering that the damage is limited to just two spots, that you shouldn't get it re-done at all. John
GardMan
Enlightened Member
bluesypicky said:
My advice, glue and cleat the cracks, and leave the finish alone. My D-44 has a pretty nasty old crack in the top (you could see light through the worst part of it) ... never glued or cleated til I got her, and a tailpin/tailblock split (obviously got dropped on its pin). The top crack had accumulated years of dirt... so looks pretty ugly. Neither affects the sound, and I hardly see them anymore...
Dave
Hi,
I think you should have the cracks cleated and refinished. The wear marks on the top should have a very thin layer of nitro applied. There is no reason to refinish the entire top. The lacquer on the wear spots will basically re-seal the wood, preventing dirt from sticking to the top, and also sealing it (to the extent that the rest of the guitar top is sealed) from any undue moisture loss.
Kostas
I think you should have the cracks cleated and refinished. The wear marks on the top should have a very thin layer of nitro applied. There is no reason to refinish the entire top. The lacquer on the wear spots will basically re-seal the wood, preventing dirt from sticking to the top, and also sealing it (to the extent that the rest of the guitar top is sealed) from any undue moisture loss.
Kostas
bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
Thanks for the pointers guys!
Kostask, I had the very same thought about just resealing the top where the finish is gone, that would protect the bare wood without taking the chance of ruining the sound board properties, and particularly it's flexibility as put forth by CJ.
Sounds like a winner to me...
Now would you trust yourself with doing it or would you let a pro do it, it's such a small surface... but I never messed with any guitar finishing business before, wouldn't even know what type of nitro to use and where to get it?
Kostask, I had the very same thought about just resealing the top where the finish is gone, that would protect the bare wood without taking the chance of ruining the sound board properties, and particularly it's flexibility as put forth by CJ.
Sounds like a winner to me...
Now would you trust yourself with doing it or would you let a pro do it, it's such a small surface... but I never messed with any guitar finishing business before, wouldn't even know what type of nitro to use and where to get it?
Bluespicky:
Take it to a pro, mostly because he will already be working to fix the crack, and will already have the nitro on hand. From my experience, the really good luthiers are really good at color matching, so that the new lacquer will blend in, in terms of color with the existing finish. There is no reason to scrape off the entire finish and refinish when only a small part of it needs to be repaired.
Also, I don't agree with the flexibility argument. Nitro, as time goes on, does not become more flexible, it actually becomes harder and more glass like, as the solvents continue to out gas (nitro basically dries out and shrinks, hence a lot of the checking on older guitars). The finish becomes thinner, and does help the guitar sound better, but it is due to reduced mass (solvents outgassing) and hardening. Poly finishes are actually a lot more flexible than nitro (more like thin sheets of rubber, and far more resistant to checking due to this flexibility) and while they are also thicker, their flexibility results in sub optimal tone. Poly finishes are essentially dry as soon as they complete the UV cure/catalytic drying process, and do not continue to either dry or shrink.
Kostas
Take it to a pro, mostly because he will already be working to fix the crack, and will already have the nitro on hand. From my experience, the really good luthiers are really good at color matching, so that the new lacquer will blend in, in terms of color with the existing finish. There is no reason to scrape off the entire finish and refinish when only a small part of it needs to be repaired.
Also, I don't agree with the flexibility argument. Nitro, as time goes on, does not become more flexible, it actually becomes harder and more glass like, as the solvents continue to out gas (nitro basically dries out and shrinks, hence a lot of the checking on older guitars). The finish becomes thinner, and does help the guitar sound better, but it is due to reduced mass (solvents outgassing) and hardening. Poly finishes are actually a lot more flexible than nitro (more like thin sheets of rubber, and far more resistant to checking due to this flexibility) and while they are also thicker, their flexibility results in sub optimal tone. Poly finishes are essentially dry as soon as they complete the UV cure/catalytic drying process, and do not continue to either dry or shrink.
Kostas
About 20 years ago I had the back refinished on my F-212-too many years of too big buckles. I had also worn through the finish on the top between the bridge and the pickguard-sort of the same area as the hole in Willie's Trigger. The luthier who did the work (great matching of finishes, BTW) said that he just used clear nail polish on spots like that. Quick fix that seems to have done the trick.
Brad
Brad
In the LTG thread Waking Up A Top;kostas said:
Hi Kostas; I'm agreeing with your expert; for you to take issue means either he's full of it or you are. I honestly don't know the physics of why tops loosen up ... and really don't care that much either. Respectfully, JohnKostas said:
DITTO!Terry Allan Hall said:bluesypicky said:Time for an update!
Got up early and exited yesterday morning and was on the road after a quick breakfast and an espresso, heading towards that F 212 for sale locally.
After the usual "how are you doing?" "Did you have any problem finding the place?" etc...
The seller (Barry) pulls the Guild out of it's case and immediately says "this is the only problem" pointing at a 3 or 4 inch crack on the guitar. Had he slapped me in the face I would have been less shocked. Mind you, this crack is neither affecting the sound, nor the structural integrity of the guitar, as it is located on the bottom side of the lower bout and almost looks as if a finish crack only. I then proceeded with the testing, and went (to myself, never show any enthusiasm in front of a seller :lol: ) "wow, what a sound"! See, I didn't know what a 12 strings was supposed to sound like since the only one I ever owned a few years back was a fender.... :lol:
As I was feeling the harpischord-like vibrations of the F212 all over my body, I was thinking that I wanted that guitar really bad, but I guess the disapointment caused by the crack, bordering on anger towards the seller for not giving me all the details over the phone, gave me the courage to throw a low ball offer ($300) at him without feeling too ashamed
He took it like a man but declined, I then thanked him for letting me take a look, and left him with his thoughts. I was about 2 exits away on the road when I got tickled by the cell phone vibrating. It was Barry calling me back to tell me that because he liked the way I had played and looked at his guitar (that he owned since he bought it new in 1975), he tought it would have a good home with me and decided to accept my offer!
I turned the car around and drove back to his place in less time than it takes you to shift in gear :lol: , singing all the way over a loud playing Freddie King CD, and got a hold of what has now become my 1975 F 212!
Then to keep the day going nicely, I had the pleasure of meeting with our fellow LTG'er Capnjuan (we had PM'd each other on the forum after realizing that we lived 5 miles apart from each other
I will post pics of the F 212 later (Don't despair Southern :roll: ), or even better, I will wait until the crack is repaired and post before and after pics..... I played it all evening and into the night until my hands started to hurt (litterally), I guess I forgot how wide these 12 strings necks were! But the sound is so rewarding that I had to get in actual physical pain to finally put it down.
SCORE!!! :mrgreen:
Bluesy,
I'm not sure what happened with the side crack. That's pretty big. I'm guessing that was an impact as it isn't entirely with the grain. Definitely have a luthier look at that and possibly brace it. Can you see light from the other side when you shine a flashlight at it from either inside or outside? I'm not positive whether these sides are solid or laminate, but I think they're solid. If you can see light, then you probably should repair it (i.e., it's solid).
As for the top... I wouldn't touch that at all! That wear is "normal" and your top looks great. You shouldn't go down the refinish route for that. I have the same wear on a couple of my older axes... I wouldn't even spot lacquer it, but indeed discuss your options with a luthier.
You got a great price, and it's all your call. Keep us posted on what you do.
I'm not sure what happened with the side crack. That's pretty big. I'm guessing that was an impact as it isn't entirely with the grain. Definitely have a luthier look at that and possibly brace it. Can you see light from the other side when you shine a flashlight at it from either inside or outside? I'm not positive whether these sides are solid or laminate, but I think they're solid. If you can see light, then you probably should repair it (i.e., it's solid).
As for the top... I wouldn't touch that at all! That wear is "normal" and your top looks great. You shouldn't go down the refinish route for that. I have the same wear on a couple of my older axes... I wouldn't even spot lacquer it, but indeed discuss your options with a luthier.
You got a great price, and it's all your call. Keep us posted on what you do.
adorshki
Reverential Member
Sally Hansen's lists nitrocellulose in the ingredients. Used it on my D25 though my "Dankoitis" was very minor compared to your pics. I just very carefully loaded the brush so as to be able to "fill" the cracks with almost no excess flowing out around them. Works pretty good and dries quick. Almost invisible if you've got a steady hand. My new favorite luthier says the nitrocellulose even comes in a form like glue sticks now.Brad Little said:
bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
Thanks again to all for the helpful tips, the guitar is at the repairman who after looking at it said:
As far as the crack is concerned, he won't be able to cleat or staple it because it runs right by the edge of the sliced piece of wood (I don't know what it's called but I'll use the term "runner") that snakes all around the whole side and that is glued to top and side, there is the same "runner" easily seen on all guitars through the sound hole, that corners side and back. He confirmed that it was not that big of a deal as there is plenty of strength there, thanks to that "runner" described above, but that he was going to glue and clamp it back together to stop any possible movement on the side of the crack that is not supported by this runner.
As far as the top is concerned he agrees with Chazmo (and everybody else who said "don't touch it") and said that:
1- The tiny bit of wood exposed with no finish as a result of some brutal pick strumming was absolutely not an issue for the top itself.
2- That on a re-selling stand point (not my concern right now but I listened), any refinish attempt on the top, even just a spot touch up, would mean losing almost all of what it will be worth then.
I will probably get it back end of this week or early the next and will gladly share my impressions and pictures with all y'all....
As far as the crack is concerned, he won't be able to cleat or staple it because it runs right by the edge of the sliced piece of wood (I don't know what it's called but I'll use the term "runner") that snakes all around the whole side and that is glued to top and side, there is the same "runner" easily seen on all guitars through the sound hole, that corners side and back. He confirmed that it was not that big of a deal as there is plenty of strength there, thanks to that "runner" described above, but that he was going to glue and clamp it back together to stop any possible movement on the side of the crack that is not supported by this runner.
As far as the top is concerned he agrees with Chazmo (and everybody else who said "don't touch it") and said that:
1- The tiny bit of wood exposed with no finish as a result of some brutal pick strumming was absolutely not an issue for the top itself.
2- That on a re-selling stand point (not my concern right now but I listened), any refinish attempt on the top, even just a spot touch up, would mean losing almost all of what it will be worth then.
I will probably get it back end of this week or early the next and will gladly share my impressions and pictures with all y'all....
GardMan
Enlightened Member
The term for this piece of wood is "kerfing." It provides surfaces for attaching the top amd back to the sides. "Kerfing" also applies to the little slices made in the piece of wood, which allows it to be bent to shape more easily.bluesypicky said:
I think you got a great player at a great price.
capnjuan said:
Capnjuan:
With all due respect, you need to read what Al Carruth said. He said "what happens is that the top "loosens up" a bit", and he is correct. You interpret that as it being the finish. Al Carruth is referring to the soundboard WOOD, not the finish. The wood, due to extended vibrations over years of playing, becomes more flexible. The nitro, as I said before, outgases, losing weight and mass, and essentially becomes more crystalline. Nitro is basically tree sap, and if you let that sit long enough, it becomes crystalline, essentially the same that happens when nitro lacquer finishes outgassing. Both factors end up making an old guitar sound better.
There is speculation from a lot of the "big name" luthiers that the "opening up" of a factor of the lignin inside the cell walls being redistributed around the top to different areas by the vibration of the top, In addition, the wood of the top also continues to shrink, very slowly over time, and the wood continues to dry out over the years. That is why a lot of older guitars seem to be so light.
I may be full of it, but know that Al Carruth is one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet when it comes to guitars and why they sound the way they do. However, you will probably find, if you spend enough time looking, that Al Carruth will have the same opinion regarding the long term changes in nitro that I do.
Sorry that I came across as an idiot.
Kostas
Hi Kostas; I'm not sure a distinction between the relative flexibility (or inflexibility) of the top and its finish is one worth making. "Not every hair is worth splitting" Famous Barber
Best wishes, John
Best wishes, John
GardMan
Enlightened Member
I don't know about guitars "opening up" as the wood ages and they're played... I have only bought one Guild new and "broke her in" and that was 35+ years ago.
However... when I rec'd my old D-44 a year ago, she came with a substantial crack on the soundboard and a split tail block. I knew I need to have those attended to, but I kept her at home for a month... just to hear how she sounded. She had/has strong ringing trebles, and a good strong bass. I'd say a nice cross between rosewood and mahogany sound... a very folksy sound.
Then, I took her in and had my local tech glue the soundboard crack and add two small cleats. The tail block crack was also glued and a thin reinforcing plate of maple put on.
When I brought her home a week later and took her out of the case... I thought I had ruined her. The tone I liked so well was gone. The trebles were thin and the bass more of a thud. But, I continued to play her hard for a week or two... and by the end of that time, her sound was right back to where it was when I first got her. The only thing I can figure (other than I imagined the whole thing) was that the top repair had stiffened up her top some, and it needed to "open up" again. So, maybe there is something to it all...
Dave
However... when I rec'd my old D-44 a year ago, she came with a substantial crack on the soundboard and a split tail block. I knew I need to have those attended to, but I kept her at home for a month... just to hear how she sounded. She had/has strong ringing trebles, and a good strong bass. I'd say a nice cross between rosewood and mahogany sound... a very folksy sound.
Then, I took her in and had my local tech glue the soundboard crack and add two small cleats. The tail block crack was also glued and a thin reinforcing plate of maple put on.
When I brought her home a week later and took her out of the case... I thought I had ruined her. The tone I liked so well was gone. The trebles were thin and the bass more of a thud. But, I continued to play her hard for a week or two... and by the end of that time, her sound was right back to where it was when I first got her. The only thing I can figure (other than I imagined the whole thing) was that the top repair had stiffened up her top some, and it needed to "open up" again. So, maybe there is something to it all...
Dave
Hi Dave; I can't speak from personal experience about tops breaking in. The 'break-in' phenomenon is pretty widely reported and discussed (although not as widely as UFOs) and it makes intuitive sense; top has to move some, moves more as it ages/gets played. Having said that, for a long time, people thought the world was flat because it seemed to make sense. There was a time when I used to buy expensive stereo inter-connect cables, bring them home, turn the gear on and say to my wife: "Hear that Honey?". She'd say: "Hear what Dear?"
Cheers, J
Cheers, J
bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
capnjuan said:
....and that's why I stayed very "primitive" when it comes to instrument analysis:
I let the techies do the talking and let my ears do the "deciding" :wink:
That said, I am glad techies are around, as it is always interesting to understand how those things are built, plus, we need them fixed when they're broken! :lol: