Deep thoughts on the Guild brand and history

[cjd-player]

What is with the Tayloresque pickguards on a number of Martins? Even Martin has had to evolve rapidly or risk extinction, I suppose.

In both 2009 and 1010, Taylor was number 1 in acoustic guitar sales. At a Taylor Road Show last year I heard Bob Taylor say that guitar builders who just continue to remake their past are doomed to eventually die. You know, several years ago he actually went to the Martin factory and helped them get up to speed on using CNC machines for making guitar parts. He did the same for James Olson. He has also helped many independent luthiers start using the UV- cured polyester finishes.

 

[Curlington]

Looks like Martin has sold its soul to the devil. I initially missed the significance of this. I wouldn’t even get close to them at GC, but quick research this afternoon showed me that these pickguard abominations are but one small part of Martin’s new Performing Artist Series. These PASs (remarkably close to POS don’t ya know) are more like Taylors than I ever imagined: "A good percentage of the market wants to plug in their acoustic guitars, either for performance, studio or home recording," said Chris Martin [Taylor is eating our lunch]. A more parallel neck profile with a slimmer taper at the 12th fret, giving the guitar comfortable width in the first few frets plus a faster feel for lead-work as you move up the neck [They want an electric that looks like an acoustic]. Sleek modern style [They want it to look like a Taylor]. Onboard preamp, etc. [etc.].

A perfect reflection of modern America: Grow or die.

I give Taylor all due respect for his business acumen and aggressive adoption of technology, and marketing brilliance of cult-like proportions. But, IMHO, he has built quite a brand capitalizing on the general societal trend toward all style and little substance, instant gratification, no soul. It all logically reduces down to Guitar Hero. Someone once said, and I agree, that buying a Taylor is like spending lots of money for a McDonalds hamburger. I can always hope Taylor will go away like Ovation did. At least Taylor didn’t buy Guild. Or, now Martin for that matter, it seems.

No need to degenerate into Taylor bashing/defending here. I am a dying breed, apparently. I have almost always bought used and I avoid big operations like GC as much as possible, so, who cares what I think about Taylor and these new Martin PASs.

 

[fronobulax]

I have almost always bought used

Of course you realize that it is people with similar buying habits that makes the future of Guild look as uncertain as it does. :wink: What other product/brand is out there where the biggest competition for the new product is what the company made 10-50 years ago?

 

[adorshki]

Someone once said, and I agree, that buying a Taylor is like spending lots of money for a McDonalds hamburger.

Interesting observation, maybe that's the point. With McDonald's, you know exactly what you're going to get every time, it's like they cloned a million hamburgers so that they'd be exactly the same in every store by god.. :lol:
I have a buddy who made a serious stab at becoming a career musician, the whole touring to build up the name and everything, and he loved Taylors. Never could understand it, except that he said once that they record well. Maybe for his purposes that "McDonald's sound" was a guaranteed given he always knew what to do with. And he used to change axes pretty frequently too, by my standards, seemed like he rotated a "new" one into the collection every year except for one trusty old Tele.
I played one a couple years back, grand auditorium body cutaway a/e, forget the model number (814 or 914ce?) but it was a couple years old used back then, and gotta admit, I thought playability was excellent, I really liked the neck, and that's a big big plus to me. IIRC it was shortscale but still had 1-11/16th nut which I'm hoping Guild will do soon on something like an F30. Sounded pretty darn good too. Not as "gutsy" as my Guilds, but kind of a "transparent" tone, which I thought was nice at the time.

 

[davismanLV]

I give Taylor all due respect for his business acumen and aggressive adoption of technology, and marketing brilliance of cult-like proportions. But, IMHO, he has built quite a brand capitalizing on the general societal trend toward all style and little substance, instant gratification, no soul. It all logically reduces down to Guitar Hero. Someone once said, and I agree, that buying a Taylor is like spending lots of money for a McDonalds hamburger. I can always hope Taylor will go away like Ovation did. At least Taylor didn’t buy Guild. Or, now Martin for that matter, it seems.

No need to degenerate into Taylor bashing/defending here. I am a dying breed, apparently. I have almost always bought used and I avoid big operations like GC as much as possible, so, who cares what I think about Taylor and these new Martin PASs.

Well, sorry, Curlington. You can't come and BASH Taylor and then say, "Oh, lets not degenerate....." Because you already have. You're entitled to your opinion. But Bob Taylor has built Taylor guitars into quite an empire and put them right at the top. If you don't like them, that's fine..... but he builds a DAMN FINE GUITAR. Comparing Taylor guitars to McDonald's hamburgers is ..... ridiculous.

So if you expected to snuff out any controversy with your closing line.... you can think again. I love Guild guitars. But I don't have to BASH other manufacturers to make them look good. Guild makes great guitars. Martin makes great guitars. Taylor makes great guitars. It can all happen at once.

 

[Curlington]

When you are right, you are right. I regretted it almost immediately after posting. Too far afield of where I started, which was commenting on what I was learning about Guild and Fender. I personally know one performing musician quite well, and he swears by his Taylor 51X with a cedar top. I can't argue with his success, and he's better than I'll ever be in my dreams.

 

[Ridgemont]

Interesting comments from many folks. There have been a lot of knocks of companies like Martin for going astray and making "Tayloresque" guitars. It is true and everybody is entitled to their opinion on the matter. A successful company knows when to adapt to consumer's desire/need. Look at Chevrolet. 50 years ago they were making muscle cars and large sedans that both guzzled gas. Today they still make their classic muscle car and the all electric Chevrolet Volt. I saw both, earlier today, on the road. They are still around. As far back as I can remember, Oldsmobile made large sedans. Consumer appeal slowly dropped and they declared for bankruptcy in 2009. The same could be said for Hummer and the price increase of oil.

Some knock it, but companies like Martin know how to adapt and survive. Guild is doing the same with the introduction of the Standard Series. Cutaways, built-in electronics and a slim/modern neck with a 1&3/4" nut. Sounds like a Taylor to me and it is the same thing Martin is doing. It is what the public wants and it is part of survival. At least companies like Martin and Guild are like Chevrolet in that they provide the traditional sports car in addition to the modern all electric car. What I mean by this is that Martin is producing a series of guitars that are modern and plug-in ready in addition to all the traditional lines they have always produced. Guild has the modern Standard series and the Traditional line. Martin adapts to the market in other ways as well. There hasn't been an interest in the ukulele for several decades and Martin hasn't really made them since before the Great Depression (a side note is that one year in the 20s/30s, Martin made 4 times more ukuleles than guitars...how about that for adaptation). There has been a recent spike in interest and now Martin has a full line. Martin even has a come out with a slope-shouldered dread with "Gibsonesque" writing on the headstock. It is part of a series of guitars that pays homage to great guitar designs....at least according to Martin.

 

[cjd-player]

With McDonald's, you know exactly what you're going to get every time, it's like they cloned a million hamburgers so that they'd be exactly the same in every store by god.. :lol:

:lol: :lol:
Many years ago I was in Tokyo on business. My colleague and I saw a McDonald's as we were walking around on a Sunday afternoon. Out of curiosity we just had to stop in under the Golden Arches. The "hamburgers" we received were about 1/2 the size of a normal U.S. McDonald's hamburger, and neither one of us thought that we were eating beef. :shock: Who knows what we ate? They are NOT all the same everywhere. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Ravon]

I feel I need to present a complete essay before joining in on this thread But previous posts about adapting and change have me just thinking about how much is due Mark Dronge when he pushed for the solid-bodies. The way I read Hans' book, that even though he resisted at first, Al of course had the final say and can simply infer from that how forward thinking the Dronges were.

 

[fronobulax]

Picking nits. It's what I do.

As far back as I can remember, Oldsmobile made large sedans. Consumer appeal slowly dropped and they declared for bankruptcy in 2009.

Technically Oldsmobile was a part of General Motors. They are no more but it was a side effect of GM's bankruptcy. Point about adapting to consumer demand or dying noted and agreed with. It should also be noted that the more companies adapt to fill the same demand the more their products will appear to be similar? How close do you have to get to a car before you can tell which company made it without reading the badge? A lot closer than you had to 50 years ago if my memory is correct.

Thus I would almost expect guitar designs to be converging to a common denominator the closer the target audience gets to the "mass market".

 

[jmac]

How close do you have to get to a car before you can tell which company made it

Sometimes I wonder if most cars roll off of the same assembly line, minus a few cosmetic changes that are added later to distinguish one manufacturer from another.

I'm not an acoustic guitar player, so to me it seems like most acoustic guitars have always looked pretty much alike with only the headstock and pickguard being unique features.

 

[adorshki]

With McDonald's, you know exactly what you're going to get every time, it's like they cloned a million hamburgers so that they'd be exactly the same in every store by god.. :lol:

:lol: :lol:
Many years ago I was in Tokyo on business. My colleague and I saw a McDonald's as we were walking around on a Sunday afternoon. Out of curiosity we just had to stop in under the Golden Arches. The "hamburgers" we received were about 1/2 the size of a normal U.S. McDonald's hamburger, and neither one of us thought that we were eating beef. :shock: Who knows what we ate? They are NOT all the same everywhere. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Some may knock it, but companies like McDonald's know how to adapt and survive. No doubt the ratio of soy extender to ground beef in those burgers was carefully calibrated to the typical Japanese palate. Next time you're there, I'd suggest sushi. :lol:
(touche, BTW! )

 

[adorshki]

Picking nits. It's what I do.

As far back as I can remember, Oldsmobile made large sedans. Consumer appeal slowly dropped and they declared for bankruptcy in 2009.

Technically Oldsmobile was a part of General Motors. They are no more but it was a side effect of GM's bankruptcy. Point about adapting to consumer demand or dying noted and agreed with.

I like pickin' too, so I'll jump on the dogpile here. As an Oldsmobile Cutlass fan I want to point out that their Cutlass coupe model was one of the biggest selling single models of the '70's.
They were allowed to wither on the vine by GM in the late '90's early '00's, and actually closed production in '04, fully 5 years before GM's corporate implosion.
HOWEVER, the point about failing to adapt is still at the heart of why they're no longer around.
Remember "This isn't your father's Oldsmobile"? Problem was, it wasn't your Oldsmobile either.
To me, a front wheel drive watered-down version of their iconic 442 was a travesty and an insult to the heritage, and that was in '91 when I was only 35.
A brand can shoot itself in the foot.
Maybe, just maybe, a bit more corporate support from GM would have kept them around, but what's done is done.
Let's hope in a couple of years we're not sayin' "Maybe, just maybe, a bit more corporate support from Fender would have kept them around..."
Buy often and buy new!

 

[West R Lee]

There was a McDonalds and a Pizza Hut in Kuantan, Malaysia in 2000, didn't taste much like McDonalds or Pizza Hut though. Ever heard of fish pizza?

And by the way, the thing that draws me to Martin is indeed the tradition. Hard to beat a very nice sounding D28, and I'll bet they're not too far off the way they were designed 40 years ago.

West

 

[Walter Broes]

Ever heard of fish pizza?

ummm...yes..

Tuna and Anchovies are very traditional pizza toppings.

 

[fronobulax]

[quote="West R Lee":3nkccpq5] Ever heard of fish pizza?

ummm...yes..

Tuna and Anchovies are very traditional pizza toppings.[/quote:3nkccpq5]

Never heard of tuna on pizza and I think in my whole life I have only seen one anchovy pizza ordered and consumed. But then for several years I thought "fish taco" was a lewd joke and not an actual food.

 

[killdeer43]

Fish taco veer: Best fish tacos ever can be consumed at Paco's Tacos in Twisp, WA.
Had two on Wednesday and I just wish they weren't three hours away!

Back to your regular program....... 8)

Joe

 

[kevin the bass man]

Picking nits. It's what I do.

As far back as I can remember, Oldsmobile made large sedans. Consumer appeal slowly dropped and they declared for bankruptcy in 2009.

Technically Oldsmobile was a part of General Motors. They are no more but it was a side effect of GM's bankruptcy. Point about adapting to consumer demand or dying noted and agreed with.

I like pickin' too, so I'll jump on the dogpile here. As an Oldsmobile Cutlass fan I want to point out that their Cutlass coupe model was one of the biggest selling single models of the '70's.
They were allowed to wither on the vine by GM in the late '90's early '00's, and actually closed production in '04, fully 5 years before GM's corporate implosion.
HOWEVER, the point about failing to adapt is still at the heart of why they're no longer around.
Remember "This isn't your father's Oldsmobile"? Problem was, it wasn't your Oldsmobile either.
To me, a front wheel drive watered-down version of their iconic 442 was a travesty and an insult to the heritage, and that was in '91 when I was only 35.
A brand can shoot itself in the foot.
Maybe, just maybe, a bit more corporate support from GM would have kept them around, but what's done is done.

Al, whats wrong with you? you dont like the "high tech" Quad 4 powered cutlass calais 442? :lol:
(not even sure if 442 stood for anything- 4 banger, 4 speakers, 2 doors?)
I guess olds was right- the 442 calais was not my fathers Olds- he laughed at them. then he bought an olds mini wagon with a 3.3 and said it was the best 2 person fwd wagon ever (its supposed to seat 8, but the middle row and jump seat were worthless)
IIRC, in the late 90's/ early 2000's, olds actually sold more vehicles than buick.

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

Best fish tacos ever can be consumed at Paco's Tacos in Twisp, WA.
Joe

I don't know Joe, I think that Surf Taco here in New Jersey could give you a run for the money!

 

[adorshki]

Al, whats wrong with you? you dont like the "high tech" Quad 4 powered cutlass calais 442? :lol:

Although that Quad 4 did pack a bit of a buzz, my girlfriend could get her hair blown back better with her Trojan.

IIRC, in the late 90's/ early 2000's, olds actually sold more vehicles than buick.

Not sure about that, but yes I wondered why Olds was allowed to die while Buick was kept on life support. W-a-a-a-y back in the day Buick was actually considered the step up from Olds, until the intro of the Toronado in '66, which positioned Olds as a step down from Caddy which got the FWD El Dorado the following year. THOSE cars though were entirely different handling creatures than the '90's vehicles due to their longitudinal engine layout allowing turning radius similar to the RWD cars of the day.
I'm taking a guess that the Build Regal sales all by themselves made Buick what GM wanted: One model with a high sales volume, in a "tightly focused" brand. Apparently was Buick doing well in export markets too. I think it's China's #1 import brand right now. :shock: