Why is Fender so reprehensible?

[West R Lee]

The part of the whole issue that I have NEVER understood is this, and if anyone has an answer, please feel free.

When Fender bought Guild and the Westerly plant, I would assume that part of the Fender philosophy was that the acquisition would lend a tremendous amount of credibility to Fender in the acoustic realm, but most of all, to have ownership of the highest quality acoustic made in America, or the world for that matter. Then you produce for a mere 6 years, shut the doors, and begin manufacturing in China.

Why? I understand that the Westerly plant was not as profitable as Fender would have liked. I've heard that the Westerly plant needed some serious retrofitting and Fender didn't want to fork out the bucks. How much does it cost to move production to China? Then to Corona? Then to Tacoma?

Am I missing something here? I know I'm just a dumb old technician, but where is the financial wisdom in that. Was there more to the decision to close Westerly? Anyone chime on in here. I'm not trying to throw darts at Fender, merely attempting to understand.

West

 

[SmithfieldFair]

Westerly, West

West -- The story that Fender circulated was that the Westerly plant building was about 100 years old and should have been modernized years ago. The building was in a state of serious decay and was causing problems for the guitar-making process (hence all those 'flawed' Guilds). So, the decision was made to move a little bit west - to California. However, NONE of the Westerly staff wanted to move, even though Fender offered to move them - so they said. Interesting that NO ONE wanted to move to California....or was it to work for Fender? I don't know, but now I'm digressing. Anyway, they said they sent Carona people to train in Westerly and Westerly people to train people at Carona and then they made a bunch of kits to use in Carona. Then, Westerly was closed and all the people faded into history - I assume, because they were never mentioned again - and some had been with Guild a long, long time. Anyway, that's the story according to an article that quoted, I believe Bill Acton...and then Donnie Wade set things up in China....

That's the Fender story I read over and over and over again in several different publications....almost word for word. And you know....corporation marketing people never lie. Aye, Coastie? dbs

 

[Mr. P ~]

Why? I understand that the Westerly plant was not as profitable as Fender would have liked. I've heard that the Westerly plant needed some serious retrofitting and Fender didn't want to fork out the bucks. How much does it cost to move production to China? Then to Corona? Then to Tacoma?

West

I would clarify one thing West. The Westerly-Carona-Tacoma transition is the "apples" and China is the "oranges". The GAD series I would guess was supposed to be a real profitable operation and it is totally seperate from the Guild line.

The Westerly plant I think was not capable of expanding or being much more efficient without major expense. The Carona plant was NOT blessed with a lot of expertise in Acoustic manufacturing and could not handle the added complete Guild production. Tacoma has some pretty modern tooling and a good work force and probably lower cost of workforce as well. If you check out the tour pictures on the Unofficial Tacoma site of the plant you see people that take emense pride in their work. I believe we will be more and more please with Tacoma as time goes on.

Being a Materials and Processes Engineer, I really like what they are trying to do with the contemporary series, even though it looses some of its romanticism.

I meant to clarify.....but I may have gone the wrong way.

 

[West R Lee]

Smithy,

Has anyone ever talked to any former Westerly employees to verify Fender's version that you know of, other than Hans of course, I'm sure Mr. Moust has to remain pretty diplomatic and nutural for obvious reasons? I'm just real curious, again not so much to pick at Fender, but to try to understand the history and the Fender decision making.

So we'll say the roof leaked and the walls needed tightening, we'll even ad the cost of some extensive retooling. In hindsight, wouldn't it still have been cheaper, and more prudent to have stayed at Westerly, given all of the moves and lack of popularity of the newer product?

West

 

[Bing k]

Now don't get the idea that I'm trying to pick an argument here.
I think Fender had a model to go by that worked well previously and still works well today.

Siwash says 'Perhaps Fender should just stick the "Fender" name on sub-$400 junk starter guitars.'

They Have!
The Mexican Standard Electric has had the Fender logo on the head stock from the start I believe.
Now I wouldn't call the Mexican standards junk, they have always been very good guitars, but they sell for $350 to $400 every day and are a great way to start with a quality Fender electric on a budget.

It's the perfect example of a player being able to start with the less expensive import of the line and moving up to the American side when he deemed it appropriate.

This model has proven it's self to work for the company.

drednut wrote: If GADs are such great guitars, then why in the world would I spend 3X as much on one made in the US, when the only alleged difference is the labor cost?

Why do players buy American Fenders?

No one I know of says the GADs are the same quality as the Americans
but:

If the GADs are such crap. Why do I find all the other lines I deal with scrambling like heck to match the quality at the price.

 

[Mr. P ~]

If the GADs are such crap. Why do I find all the other lines I deal with scrambling to like heck to match the quality at the price.

That is the truth of the matter right there. I think Rand Neuman said it best, "It's Money that I love!"

 

[guildzilla]

Graham, folks have their passions and you sought their opinions, so they offered, including me.

But don't let any opinions ruin your experience of buying and enjoying what will be your guitar. Call us Geezers and walk on, if that's your take. This is supposed to be fun. My first was-it-even-decent? guitar was a Yamaha F-330 in bought in 1978. It was among the first $160-plus purchases I'd made in my life. I went from the music store to a park and played every song I ever knew. And I never sounded so good to myself. I loved that guitar that day and for years afterward, even though I certainly knew it was among the least expensive acoustics in that music store.

You deserve to feel that way, too. And I'll bet the GAD you are considering is light years better than my once-beloved Yamaha.

If you believe in your own ear, and especially if you consider yourself a good musician, then listen, feel, follow your heart, and take your time.

 

[West R Lee]

Graham,

It's not about the dislike of the GAD guitars themselves, it is a dislike of how things were handled. That combined with some serious passion for old Westerly built guitars.

Many of us hold hope that Guild will succeed in Tacoma. I hope they do!

West

 

[california]

Things could be worse -- if Fender's acoustics weren't lousy they may have killed off the Guild acoustic line the same way they did with electrics to stem the competition.

 

[Graham]

Graham, folks have their passions and you sought their opinions, so they offered, including me.

But don't let any opinions ruin your experience of buying and enjoying what will be your guitar.

I think it's the passion that is showing through here that has me more and more interested in pursuing the Guild line of guitars. All of them.

I currently own an "entry" level guitar, a Cort. It is what has gotten me this far, I also have a Seagull 12 string, totally different sound and feel. Very warm, to me.

It is just very diificult to justify spending close to $2000 CAD on a guitar that I am going to mostly play to myself, in my own home. Especially when #1 son is off to University next year $$$$. However I do know that I want more of a sound than I get from the Cort now. I have played a Guild GAD-30 very briefly and was immediately impressed so I thought I would pursue the idea and ask for opinions, which I found, in abundance. Will I "walk on" because there is spirited debate about what I asked? Not at all, in fact that is making me want to seek out a "real" Guild and give it a play.

I played a Martin DM the other day entry level at $1000 and thought it was a nice guitar. For the fun of it I pulled a D-28 off the wall and had at it, wow, the difference, even to me was remarkable, so it's not as if I can't see what you are trying to express, I just have to be realistic in my approach.

If I end up with a GAD, I'm not going to look at it every day, if I like it, and think "it's Chinese", I'm going to think it's Guild. Why? Because the headstock says Guild. And it may not be the shield, or the chesterfield, heck it may be the ottoman I don't know, but the lettering is Guild. That is what may lead me back and into a "real" Guild. That is what would hook me and make me a geezer.

I really do appreciate the opinions, it's why I asked. It has also sparked some very great comments from some obviously very proud owners.

Thanks to you all for endulging my questions, I really do appreciate them.

I'm also learning some very good history.

I just never thought that I would be wishing to be a geezer! :shock:

G

 

[Graham]

Hey Graham,

While your're making up your mind I know a guy in Vancouver has a
G 37 for $800.00, probably take 700. It's not a pristine showpiece but it's straight & tight & plays like magic. :twisted:

I was tempted.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, while I have purchased some things sight unseen, buying a guitar unseen is something that frightens me. I'm even skiddish of buying a used guitar, something that will come with more playing under my belt I guess, but it does sound intriguing.

Price is good too. :roll:

G

 

[dreadnut]

Graham, just consider that with some shopping around you can obtain a beautiful vintage Westerly Guild for the same price as a new GAD...

 

[hideglue]

Re: Westerly, West

.... So, the decision was made to move a little bit west - to California. However, NONE of the Westerly staff wanted to move, even though Fender offered to move them - so they said.

"NONE of the Westerly staff" is a half-truth, of sorts. First of all, it was only a mere handful that was asked. Minus a few at the office and whats left was, well, a pinky & thumb. So to say that 200 employees flat out refused is not true. They were never asked.

 

[FNG]

The GAD line doesn't interest me. But, it sure seems like a good way to build interest in the Guild line. New guy buys a GAD, gets hooked, and GAS sets in. Does some research, gets some coin, and goes looking for a higher end guitar. First place he probably will look is the US made Guilds. Can't hurt Guild over all if you ask me.

I need to find Hans book in all my unpacked boxes, but wasn't the Westerly plant opened to increase the efficiency of production that the Hoboken plant wasn't able to provide? Sort of the same thing that happened when the Westerly plant was closed? So, in reality, the only true Guilds are Hoboken.

Some day I would love to own a older Guild. The Gruhn era intrigues me. But, if I was going to drop some coin, I would probably get a new Tacoma. I think we are going to see some great guitars produced there, with great respect for the vintage Guild design and sound.

I think we should all be happy that Guild is making the GAD line, because they are going to sell, they increase the profit margin for the whole line, will over time increase the sales of US Guilds, and continue to allow the rebirth of the US Guild line up.

 

[drowlins]

My first guitar, as you know, was (is) a 64' Hoboken M-20. I played that guitar for years, and it sold me on the Guild name. I have had other guitars in my life, Martins, asian, japanese, but I always went back to the little mahogony gem. I wanted a rosewood solid wood dred, and looked around, but the cost was dear, and I have two sons in college. I saw ads for the GAD line and played one. Then I bought it. The craftmanship is superb, the sound is great, and I could afford it. And it's a Guild.
I have recently bought a used 82 SB D-35 Westerly, and the sound is completly different from the GAD. And it's a guild.
I have always played Guild guitars, and while I understand the Guild import arguement, I see all these young bucks buying GADs' with their saved up allowance, and knowing the craftmanship, I can see them in later years sticking with the Guild brand because of that first impression.
They will be the savior of Guild USA and will eventually buy a top line D-55. (I know I will!)
Anything that furthers the Guild name in guitars is a good thing I think.

 

[SmithfieldFair]

Untold wonders

Hideglue -- Thanks for the clarification. It's nice to know and offers som insights. However, in my own defense - look back and note that I was only reporting what I had read printed and put forth by Fender. I was not spouting my own knowledge. I also found great humour in the stated idea from Fender that no one from Westerly wanted to move. Again - a statement about California ...or working for Fender? You know things I/we don't seem to know, so it's nice to hear first-hand G-2.

FNG - As I understand from various sources and Hans' book, Guild moved to Westerly partially because staying in NJ was dicey (lease problems, liability issues, etc.). Personally, having owned and still owning both Hoboken and Westerly models, I personally feel that Guild hadn't 'grown into its spurs' until it moved to Westerly.

Drowlins - You stated in your post that, "Anything that furthers the Guild name in guitars is a good thing I think." I would just have to question the philosphy behind 'furthering the Guild name'. Did Madeira actually further the Guild name and reputation? Did Sigma do that for Martin? Long a corporate strategy - the introduction of a lower end model series has always sparked controversy - which I won't get into here.

Suffice it to say - If a GAD spins your prop - if it's what really lets your music take flight - Man, buy one and cherish it. Asked to offer an opinion on the GAD - I still maintain it is a good quality student/introductory level import at a decent price - but only the name on the headstock, to me, bears any fleeting resemblance to what many of us (myself included) have come to expect as Guild. I just personally feel that Fender should have called them something like "GAD by Guild" or "Donnie's Project by Guild" or something to indicate what it is instead of the implication that this is just...well, never mind. Make up your own minds.

I've stated this before, as have West, P, Don and many others - buy what you want, what makes you happy, what furthers your music and inspires you to move forward. If at some time in the future you need a little boost, perhaps you'll purchase something else and that will inspire you further. I know I've owned 5-6 dozen guitars over the years at least and when I upgraded at 15 from an old nylon string Ayar to a steel string Stella - man, I thought I was on a rocket ship to the moon, musically.

Opinions...well, then - this IS a forum for people who like Guilds. Whenever you get some folk together who love something, passions are apt to run deep. Would you really want it any other way? dbs

 

[SugarMountain]

i played a GAD-30 for ages today in a store, they are awesome guitars
sound great, look great

wouldnt buy one as im a dreadnought guy, but if i was into small guitars I'd say they're flawless

 

[hideglue]

Re: Untold wonders

Hideglue --... However, in my own defense...

SF, I absolutley understand that you were just quoting the Fender machine. Sorry if my post came across as correcting your words. It was entirely aimed towards its origin.

 

[drowlins]

SF: Gibson has Epiphone, Fender has Samick, Martin has a whole line of "under $1000" cardboard guitars. Do they further their respective names?
Beginners NEED an entry level guitar, like the GAD. OK, they could have called them something else, but they could have called all their guitars something else after their move to Carona.
Name recognition means a lot. A kid will plunk down $800 for a Martin DX whatever fake guitar just for the name value. Same with all brands. Mt M-20 cost me $50.00 in 1968 which was a lot of green for a high school kid, and the M-20 was the cheapest guitar Guild made. Still, my heros played Guilds- I didn't care that mine was cheap.
There are NY nazis, Hoboken nazis, Westerly nazis, Carona nazis, and I'm sure there will be Tacoma nazis- but we all play Guilds.

 

[john_kidder]

wasn't the Westerly plant opened to increase the efficiency of production that the Hoboken plant wasn't able to provide? Sort of the same thing that happened when the Westerly plant was closed? So, in reality, the only true Guilds are Hoboken.

By that logic, the only true Guilds are from New York.