Why is Fender so reprehensible?

[songsmith7]

I'm a tad embarrassed by my earlier posts in this thread, and they should have been deleted (or not said at all). At the time, I was watching 'Braveheart' while drinking imported strong lager. That is my explanation. Not an excuse, mind you, but my explanation. Sorry, John Kidder!

Anywho, I'd just like to say that Fender American Strats are still among the most fun electric guitars to play, and the fact that they are made in Corona should not preclude one from enjoying their feel, playability and tone. Fender makes awesome guitars.

But they don't make Guild guitars.

 

[Bing k]

I'd like to clarify that I was not dissing the Fender electric builders at all in my earlier post. Fender does build great electric guitars.

The more of these new Guilds I get in here the more I believe the Guild line is on the right track. I really like these models that were introduced in the last few months.

 

[Siwash]

It will be interesting to watch The Competition of the Cheap Chinese Acoustic Guitars, and how it all unfolds. . . I mean, the GAD series has to compete against Johnson, Blueridge, etc. Perhaps the Guild name will help with the fight in that particular market niche.

Perhaps Fender should just stick the "Fender" name on sub-$400 junk starter guitars.

 

[Graham]

I'd like to add my thoughts here if I may.

This is my first post in this forum and I have read all of the posts to this topic.

I am a beginning guitar player. I own a Cort guitar that I bought 9 years ago, made in Korea. The shop I bought it from made it sound like a very good entry level guitar, which it has been. I'm now looking for another guitar and while I would love to own a Gibson J-45 I can't justify the cost for me as I'm just not that good a player yet. So I am looking to keep the cost under $1000 CAD.

I have played over a dozen guitars, Taylor, Martin, Larrivee, Seagull, S&P, Takamine, Epiphone, Guild in the past couple of months trying to find one that I like. When I played the Guild, it was a GAD-50, it sounded like what I wanted. I could not tell where it was made by it's sound, nor can I tell where a Honda Accord is made just by listening to it idle, or a Panasonic TV by watching a football game, etc...
Frankly I don't care where it is made, as someone put it earlier, if you believe in your product you put your name on it. A Larrivee is still a Larrivee even if they are made in California now and not Canada where they originated, correct?

Some day I might want to buy myself a $2000 guitar, but not today. I love the look of the Guild, the sound of the Guild and the price. If I buy it and am satisfied, I would buy another. At this time I'm not that satified with my Cort. Perhaps, even though I'm a beginner at this, my playing has improved past the point of this guitar?, so I want to move up a couple of steps.

Anyway I'm off to play an Epi AJ-500 made in china to compare it with the Guild GAD, and I'm looking forward to it.

Graham

 

[dreadnut]

Graham, if you don't necessarily need a brand new guitar, you might want to shop ebay or eslewhere for a nice used vintage Guild, say a D-15 or a D-25 which can typically be had for the same price as a new GAD. 8)

 

[guildzilla]

The only problem I have with the GAD line - and who really cares, I guess, now that it is really a Fender company - is that I believe they are the first non-American made guitars to be called Guilds. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Previously, you had Madiera by Guild and De'Armond by Guild.

But I'd never put down anyone for choosing a GAD.

Fender is one of the big winners, along with Gibson, in the demise of American guitar manufacturing, which mirrors the demise of manufacturing in America. I was born and raised in Youngtown, Ohio, the heart of the steel valley, which is like having a front row seat. Some people think it's a natural evolution of the US economy, but I wonder what they'll think when we have to start having army tanks made in China.

At least in the case of the guitar, Fender, Gibson and Martin continue to build on great legacies of their own and build a worldwide standard guitar.
What a shame it would be if there were zero jobs in American guitar manufacturing.

That doesn't mean it isn't okay to be very sorry about the loss of Guild, Gretsch and others as independent players in the guitar market.

What is particularly cool to me about Guild is that it seemed to embody the core beliefs of the craftsman from the beginning. And I also like the fact that the company tried to compete across the range of instruments: flat tops, 12-strings, archtops, classicals, solid bodies. And now we're seeing how well the older instruments are holding up, and that just makes it cooler.

Okay, you can shoot me now.

 

[Graham]

Being from a steel town as well I have seen most of it's demise, from a workforce of over 12,000 to one under 4,000 with most of the companies bought up and split by offshore investers.

It is sad, yet it makes you reinvent yourself. That includes a lot of pain and sacrifice and it is a very long curve to get around.

If from my point of view I am able to enter the Guild line with their off shore entry level guitar that's ok with me.

Having said that I played the Epi AJ-500 this afternoon. I had asked the store to bring in the burst one for me. It was horrible. It looked like something you would pick up for a costume party if you were going as Barney Fife. And it sounded just as good. I was really disappointed and I know that another one could have a much better first impresion.

So my hopes are now pinned on the GAD that they are bringing in for me, if that fails I will have to look at the entry level Martin or Taylor or Larrivee and risk ending up in those cults.

Hey as long as the cool ade is cold, I'm in.

G

 

[coastie99]

Barney Fife !!

Drum-roll, please.

Let's hear it for ANOTHER GEEZER.

 

[coastie99]

And well articulated, Guildzilla.

 

[West R Lee]

I concur......bravo!

You know Graham, the other part of this issue is that some of us have been Guild fans for many, many years and it was like losing a loved one when Guild was moved from Westerly. Sometimes, I think we old Geezers forget that there are unbiased people out there who simply like Guild guitars, regardless of where they're are made. We get a little emotional about the history of Guild and are oblivious to the fact that some newer Guilds, GADs included, might sound pretty good. I've been pretty close minded myself, but folks like Jeff here at the forum have begun to turn me around and convince me to take a little different attitude.

Westerlys will always be my first love, but I'd probably still take just about any Guild over any other comparable guitar manufacturer in the same price range.

West

 

[SmithfieldFair]

Two cents

I just have to chime in a personal opinion and observation on this argument:

1) Large corporations like Fender have a different bottom line from small companies - money. You may say that's not fair in the small companies need to make money, too - but generally as it applies to music and guitars, the real bottom line is quality of the art - money is secondary consideration. When it becomes the prime motivation, small companies sell out as a general rule. IMHO.

2) If you ever called Westerly (and I did quite a bit) and then called Fender in Scotsdale (and I have but won't again) - you'd hear a good example of the difference. Someone warm and friendly answered the phone in Westerly and you could talk to ANYONE about your guitar and if they couldn't answer the question - they'd get someone on the line who could OR CALL YOU BACK. Has never happened to me with Fender. You get a cold reception on the line and a "he's busy, I can take a message", but nothing beyond that. At least not in my experience.

3) I HATED Carona Guilds. They sucked! Everyone of them I ever played. There was something strangely fake about them. They have a history of bridges popping off and were pulled rather quickly from the market after Fender realized they were riddled with similar other problems. People who had only ever made electrics had the big hand in the problems with Guild acoustic from Carona.

4) I HATE Chinese Guilds! Everytime I see one, I say...GAD! That's probably where the name came from. Guild players seeing them and playing them go, GAD! That's not a Guild. There's nothing resembling Guild about them. It's typical corporate shenanigans - slap the name on a substandard product without changing the logo and it confuses people - lowering the overall reputation.

5) I've played some of the Tacoma Guilds and have been suitably impressed. Perhaps Fender has finally done something right. But then....look at the prices on those puppies. Losh, but they're steep. Still, a good start and one with promise.

Finally - while I hold out the highest hope for Guild and the Guild name - like Coastie says, for me, it's over. Every Guild I believe I'll ever own has already been made and was made in Westerly. With so many good used Guilds on the market...the future of my guitar playing and supply seems relatively safe.

Now, why I feel the need to have to air my opinion....well, I'm a very passionate Guild Geezer...with over 35 years of love and experience with a great company and great guitars. I hope names like Al Dronge and Carlo Greco and even George Gruhn (as a 'new boy' of course) in high esteem. I care - perhaps too deeply sometimes. Happy playing, lads...and lassies. dbs

 

[West R Lee]

 

[Mr. P ~]

DB, it's good to see you in the conversation again. I know that means you are home for a little while, which is good and bad.

Check out the unofficial Tacoma forum and look at their pictures of the groups tour of the Tacoma plant. I found it interesting that the guitars being built while the Tacoma forum people were touring were primarily D-55's.

Their facility is so clean compared to the Gibson facility I toured in Memphis.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=542897

 

[Graham]

As a newcomer to the guitar world and not just Guild I still don't get all of the animosity towards the GAD, and I probably never will.

It's not a Chinese company calling themselves US Guitars, it's a US company with US execs trying to either stay in business or keep a business such as the Guild name still going and competing, all of course for the bottom line.

Obviously to compete in the competitive guitar business for new players a company has to provide gear that the novice can afford. If I wanted to play the piano I wouldn't/couldn't run out and buy a Steinway but perhaps a Boston. Same company different level of instrument. Although I don't think either comes with a gig bag.

If the entry level instrument/car/TV/stereo provides the user with what he/she wants then brand loyalty begins to take shape and the company can keep producing the products that provide them with the biggest dividends, ie that larger ticket products.

Perhaps one day I will sit her and poo poo all of the newbies asking about the Guild entry level guitar made from thermoplastic nanocomposites costing $4000 and tell them they should save their pennies or whatever currency is of the day for one of the last two available American Made Guilds, but until then I just want a nice guitar to play in my living room.

G

 

[Bing k]

Although I don't think either comes with a gig bag.


See, thats the kind of thing that makes my side hurt while on this forum.


:lol:
BTW Graham, very good points all the way around.

 

[dreadnut]

c'mon Smith, don't hold anything back, tell us how you really feel

And I have it from a very good source that GAD stands for Gawd Awful Dreadful

I agree with you on all points but one - (and yes, I did deal with Westerly and with Fender, I had similar experiences) - I think the GADs have established their own reputation, they can only add to the value and reputation of Westerly Guilds.

I have another question: If Fender "had to do this to stay competitive in the marketplace, yada, yada, yada" then why are they bothering to build high dollar Guilds in Tacoma with expensive Yankee labor? If GADs are such great guitars, then why in the world would I spend 3X as much on one made in the US, when the only alleged difference is the labor cost? Seems to me they've created a marketing cluster**** for themselves by putting the exact same name on both guitars.

Somebody should tell Harley-Davidson that they need to build cheap Harleys in China in order to compete, thay haven't yet grasped this concept, they're too busy filling orders for bikes made in Milwaukeee...

 

[Graham]

If GADs are such great guitars, then why in the world would I spend 3X as much on one made in the US, when the only alleged difference is the labor cost?

I don't know if GADs are good value or not good value, I don't own one yet. I am going to play one and decide from there, or I maybe hang on for a D-55, who really knows?

As for the other part of that question, I'll bet the execs are thinking the same thing and if the line continues to grow or demand continues to increase it is very likely that a "real" Guild could one day be made offshore and the profit margin could be increased.

A Guild "geezer" from this forum may not buy one but a new generation could very well.

Maybe they'll launch the G-70 (beef and broccoli)

G

 

[Jeff]

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know if GADs are good value or not good value, I don't own one yet. I am going to play one and decide from there, or I maybe hang on for a D-55, who really knows?

Hey Graham,

While your're making up your mind I know a guy in Vancouver has a
G 37 for $800.00, probably take 700. It's not a pristine showpiece but it's straight & tight & plays like magic. :twisted:

I was tempted.

Jeff

 

[dklsplace]

Graham, the animosity isn't toward the GAD line of guitars themselves. Everyone in this thread has played them & to a person, all have given them respectable marks on their own merits. However, you made exactly the point of contention with this....

If I wanted to play the piano I wouldn't/couldn't run out and buy a Steinway but perhaps a Boston. Same company different level of instrument.

This thread wouldn't be here if people could run out & buy a Madeira, or DeArmond, "by Guild", knowing full well it's an import.

 

[SmithfieldFair]

another cent

Thanks, all. Good input. I think I'll let Dred's argument for the GADs and Fender's motivation stand for me, too. After awhile, the "zen of Guilds" kicks in, I just take one of mine down, and forget to care what anyone else thinks - I just play. It's when I have time to think that I get argumentative - but not when I play. As I've said before, I have nothing against the GAD series - they are pretty good little imported student/starter guitars. I just don't feel there's anything Guild about them - heritage-wise, sound-wise, philosophy-wise. With another name, I'd never had pause to mention them - like Deans or any of those other brands in those slick mail-order catalogues. BUT - I have noted that the only brand that has more NEW models for sale on Ebay than GAD is Taylor, and there seem to be a goodly number of them already for sale used here and there. That's got to say something.

O, and Graham...young turks may play GADs now...but when they've got as many fret miles under their belt as the Geezers here - they'll be wanting something more...especially if their GADs haven't held up under years of play and wear. But, I could be wrong...I've been wrong before and will be many, many, many times before I take my big multi-measured rest. But you make some very sound points, there.

Hey, P -- That IS one clean factory. Wonder how they do that? You think it's like that for every tour? Or just the announced ones? Still, good to see D-55s being made, isn't it?

BUT - let me close with this - a WARNING: I have a profound tendency to be sentimental about "the way things used to be" since passing that 5-0 mark a couple years back. I need to REALLY keep a sense of perspective and remember that ALL THINGS CHANGE. I mean...Carlo Greco DID leave Guild. Even Mark Dronge came and went. I just, unfortunately, live under that Hooded Man edict - "Nothing is forgotten. Nothing is ever fogotten."

Certainly won't forget the geezer's here anytime soon...Cheers! dbs