Where t obuy a new saddle for a D-55 ?

[JohnW63]

I would like to lower the string height of the D-55 I just got, but I would rather not sand down the bottom of the saddle, in case it is as tall as it is for a reason. Where could I find a saddle premade, these days ? The Guild web site lists a few, but not what guitars they will fit. I guess I can measure it exactly and see if any will fit. I know it needs to be a proper fit to work well.

 

[txbumper57]

PM sent

 

[chazmo]

Never personally done business with him, but Bob Colosi (http://www.guitarsaddles.com) has always gotten high marks for this kind of stuff. I think he will have you trace the saddle (or send it to him) and he'll duplicate it.

John, if you haven't done it yourself before, sanding a saddle is about the easiest thing you can do. You don't really need to treat your stock saddle as special in any way; you can always get a new one. The bottom line is that you should set the guitar up for you.

Good luck.

 

[Big-Al]

The only way to properly adjust the saddle height is to measure the string clearances at the 12th fret and do some math. Bryan Kimsey has a section on his website about this.

When I fit a new saddle . . . or modify an old one, I seldom just sand off the bottom. After adjusting for very slight neck relief and checking for high frets, I take string height measurements with a machinist's caliper at the 12th fret. I usually find that the saddle profile needs to be changed. (Saddles are often too high in the middle to just sand the bottom.) I wind up filing down the top of the saddle to accomplish specific heights at each string position and then I re-shape it to restore the compensation and create a smooth edge where each string breaks over. I Shoot for .100", .094", .088", .082", .076" and .070" clearance at the twelfth fret from bass to treble. Whatever the individual string height needs to change at the 12th means the saddle height at that position needs to change twice as much. For example, if I want to lower a string by .005" at the 12th, I need to take .010 off the saddle in that position. When I'm done, if I find a slight buzz when the guitar is played aggressively, I just add a smidgen of neck relief. (If I blow it completely, bone saddle blanks are less than $10.) Yes, it's a little OCD, but the results are worth it. If you don't feel comfortable that you can take the measurements and do the work, then take your guitar to someone who can do it. Factory fitted saddles are not always even close to being shaped right. Buying a new saddle only based on the old one assumes that the old one was close to being correct to begin with . . . which is a BIG assumption.

 

[GuildFS4612CE]

What I hear is that you got a new or new to you guitar and you're not happy with the action.

Recommendation is to spend a few bucks more and take it to a pro for a set up to your liking.

If the saddle needs to be reworked or replaced, the tech will tell you.

"action" has many components.

Good luck and enjoy your new guitar.

 

[SFIV1967]

John: As others said, there are multiple things to consider.
Have a read at one of my posts as example: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...g-and-resets&p=1703359&viewfull=1#post1703359

Ralf

 

[Neal]

That D-55 was set up for heavy bluegrass strumming. The saddle that is on there is the one that came with it brand new. It is a actually quite tall, and could easily be sanded down to your preference.

$50 would buy you a good set up, which involves nut, relief and saddle height to your preference.

If it were still mine, I would just remove the saddle, give the bottom of it a few scrubs on a piece of 120 grit sandpaper laid on a flat surface, and reinstall.

Take it slow and easy. You do not want to remove too much saddle or you will get string buzz.

Time of year also matters. Guitars "plump up" in late spring humidity, and action rises. Late fall, when the heat comes on, they shrink and action falls (even when properly humidified).

 

[JohnW63]

Time of year also matters. Guitars "plump up" in late spring humidity,

Yep. A high 32% right now !

The action from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string on the low E is 5/32. The saddle is about 8/32 tall at the 6th string. By contrast, my F47 is about 3/32 at the 12th fret. For Al, that's .156". If I were to do the quick math, that means reducing the saddle by 4/32, or half it's height to get the same action as my F47. I'm a little concerned about sanding down THAT much on the only saddle I have.

 

[Big-Al]

Yep. A high 32% right now !

The action from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string on the low E is 5/32. The saddle is about 8/32 tall at the 6th string. By contrast, my F47 is about 3/32 at the 12th fret. For Al, that's .156". If I were to do the quick math, that means reducing the saddle by 4/32, or half it's height to get the same action as my F47. I'm a little concerned about sanding down THAT much on the only saddle I have.

Yeah, I'm busted. I'm an engineer who grew up working in a machine shop. Precision measurements are in my blood. By the way, that's .15625, but who's paying attention?

When guitars are made with glued-on necks the last thing to be attached is the bridge/saddle combo. Apparently there is a bit of acceptable tolerance on neck angle when the guitar is glued up. The person who installs the bridge generally has different thicknesses to choose from to match the neck angle. I've seen brand new guitars with thick bridges and tall saddles and others with thin bridges and short saddles and others somewhere in between. They're all over the map, even from good builders. (Taylor necks are a different story.) If you get a bridge/saddle combo that's taller to begin with, then you will have more to work with as the guitar ages and the neck angle creeps downward. If you start out with a thin bridge that can't be sanded down further without a problem (less than about 9/32" thick) and a shorter saddle, then your options are more limited.

 

[Cougar]

If I were to do the quick math, that means reducing the saddle by 4/32, or half it's height to get the same action as my F47.

That just seems wrong. I would question whether the heights you're comparing vary in the direct proportion that you're assuming. IOW, doesn't a small reduction at the saddle result in a larger reduction at the 12th fret?

 

[Big-Al]

That just seems wrong. I would question whether the heights you're comparing vary in the direct proportion that you're assuming. IOW, doesn't a small reduction at the saddle result in a larger reduction at the 12th fret?

Nope. Simple geometry. The 12th fret is at the halfway point of the strings and each string forms a straight line. A given change in height at the saddle results in half as much change halfway down the string. Try laying a ruler or some other straight edge on a flat surface. Pick one end up about an inch. Look at the middle. It will be 1/2" off the surface.

 

[GardMan]

Before you make any changes to the saddle, check the neck relief.

Capo at the first fret, use your finger to fret at the 14th (where the neck meets the body). There should be just the smallest gap... 0.006" - 0.012" between the top of the 8th fret and the bottom of the low E. That's less than the dia of the high e string. If the gap is larger, tighten the truss a little... start with just 1/6 - 1/4 turn CW to straighten the neck just a little. Then measure it again... (if the gap is smaller, you might loosen the truss a little to allow the neck to bow forward just a little).

Once the neck relief is correct, THEN measure the action at the 12th and calculate how much the saddle must come down.

 

[nielDa]

Good point about checking the neck relief first. I totally get the idea of experimenting on a spare saddle. 3/32 sounds a little low, but if you go slowly and try it at incremental saddle heights, even if you go too low, you'll know where you should have stopped sanding, and you can use that measurement when you adjust the height of the original saddle.

 

[adorshki]

When guitars are made with glued-on necks the last thing to be attached is the bridge/saddle combo. Apparently there is a bit of acceptable tolerance on neck angle when the guitar is glued up. The person who installs the bridge generally has different thicknesses to choose from to match the neck angle. I've seen brand new guitars with thick bridges and tall saddles and others with thin bridges and short saddles and others somewhere in between. They're all over the map, even from good builders. (Taylor necks are a different story.) If you get a bridge/saddle combo that's taller to begin with, then you will have more to work with as the guitar ages and the neck angle creeps downward. If you start out with a thin bridge that can't be sanded down further without a problem (less than about 9/32" thick) and a shorter saddle, then your options are more limited.

Yep, Guilds were built by gluing bridge last and sanding saddle to height, but let me add that the "target" for combined bridge/saddle height is pretty universal at 1/2".

 

[adorshki]

Good point about checking the neck relief first. I totally get the idea of experimenting on a spare saddle. 3/32 sounds a little low, but if you go slowly and try it at incremental saddle heights, even if you go too low, you'll know where you should have stopped sanding, and you can use that measurement when you adjust the height of the original saddle.

Guild's last published action set-up spec was 5.5-6/64" on bass E and 4.5-5/64" on treble at 12th fret.

The action from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string on the low E is 5/32.

EEK! That's WAY too high, something's not right.
Oh, I just saw Neal's note about the saddle, that's a big surprise to me.
Actually it still doesn't seem to make sense because intonation would be way off with action that high. IE, at higher frets, notes would be very sharp.

The saddle is about 8/32 tall at the 6th string.

That is pretty tall. Even My D40 with an exceptionally tall combined bridge/saddle height is only a 5/32 saddle and my D25 is a 3/32.

By contrast, my F47 is about 3/32 at the 12th fret.

As mentioned above, that's exactly where it "should" be and leaves plenty of room for lowering for folks who really like a "slinky" feeling.

 

[Big-Al]

Yep, Guilds were built by gluing bridge last and sanding saddle to height, but let me add that the "target" for combined bridge/saddle height is pretty universal at 1/2".

I've sanded down bridges considerably lower than that on a couple of old guitars that weren't worth the price of a neck reset. . . and slotted and ramped the bridges too. They played and sounded darned good and I probably extended their playability by another decade with my hack repairs. (Flak jacket on.)

Those were yard sale specials. Obviously a D55 would deserve better treatment than that.

 

[adorshki]

I've sanded down bridges considerably lower than that on a couple of old guitars that weren't worth the price of a neck reset. . . and slotted and ramped the bridges too. They played and sounded darned good and I probably extended their playability by another decade with my hack repairs. (Flak jacket on.)

Those were yard sale specials. Obviously a D55 would deserve better treatment than that.

Right, (for John):
the 1/2" target is cited by Frank Ford (Frets.com) as being the height that gives best compromise of string energy transferring to top and playability/intonation through a range of action heights, at a "good" neck angle.
He also mentions break angle (of strings over saddle) as the primary element in good energy transfer, deriving from "good" saddle height but I forget what that "target" is, I think it was 3/16-5/32".
As I mentioned all mine were set up at factory spec height right out of the box even though the D25 is a tad low at 15/32" combined bridge/saddle height and '40's a tad high at 10/16.
And the '25 was absolutely much louder for a l-o-o-o-ng time.
D40 finally caught up in volume but '25 still has about half again as much sustain (measured as time for a harmonic to fade to complete silence) and always did, probably due to arched back.
It does corroborate Big Al's observations that heights of bridge/saddle vary in glued neck guitars and the "taller" spec doesn't necessarily guarantee better volume, other factors affect that too, like string gauge, top thickness, bracing, top wood....even headstock shape, no joke, even though some doubt it.

 

[Neal]

So, here is what I can say about this particular D-55.

I am pretty picky about action, and I do not like particularly high action, just something that doesn't buzz when I dig in. And that is exactly where I had the action dialed in by my luthier less than 6 months ago.

Secondly, the guitar has one of the tallest saddles I have ever seen. Someone else mentioned it when I posted it for sale on this forum.

IMO, this guitar needs a set-up to suit the buyer's playing style.

 

[adorshki]

I am pretty picky about action, and I do not like particularly high action, just something that doesn't buzz when I dig in. And that is exactly where I had the action dialed in by my luthier less than 6 months ago.
Secondly, the guitar has one of the tallest saddles I have ever seen. Someone else mentioned it when I posted it for sale on this forum.
IMO, this guitar needs a set-up to suit the buyer's playing style.

Yep, saw those notes and I when I realized it had been yours I wondered if there may be something else going on, maybe even just a typo on the saddle height John cited?
To me the action height he cites sounds like it's very high and I'm used to people thinking factory action (which I love) is high...
But yes, first thing is to get a pro to set it up to John's preference.
My notes were just to help him get a frame of reference.

 

[JohnW63]

The funny part is that even with the action and saddle at those heights, the intonation is pretty darn good ! Which is why I want to reserve the original saddle, just in case I need to put it back to square one.

Just for data for those following along... bridge plus saddle is 15mm or 19/32. So, if 1/2" in the target by Frank Ford. I just need to go down 3/32 or so. That backs up the twice the distance at the nut to lower at the 12th fret measurement.

Neck relief ( capo 1st, and finger on 14th method ) is about 1/32 or less than 1mm. That works out to 0.03125", so it COULD go a bit flatter. Gazing up from the bridge to the nut, it looks pretty flat.

I generally don't play out or in blue grass circles, so max volume and heaving strumming aren't really needed. I just don't want to induce buzzing at the 1st-4th frets, to get lower action at the 12th.