Where are the Guilds, where are the dealers?

Bill Ashton

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Well guys, hope you are enjoying the Orlando show without me...meanwhile I am about to handle 5", light and fluffy that came down this morning :wink:

Remember, pictures!
 

capnjuan

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Bill Ashton said:
Well guys, hope you are enjoying the Orlando show without me...meanwhile I am about to handle 5", light and fluffy that came down this morning :wink: Remember, pictures!
Hi Bill; we're going to miss you ... and will get some pics posted. Since I'm not driving a rental car, I don't expect any trouble ... :wink:
 

bluesypicky

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Spoiler alert!
There's already a plan in the works for next year Bill: You and Sandy coming together! :D
And fear not... Sandy will be handling the car rental! :lol:
Looking forward to seeing you again in Orlando or anywhere else....
 

twocorgis

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bluesypicky said:
Spoiler alert!
There's already a plan in the works for next year Bill: You and Sandy coming together! :D
And fear not... Sandy will be handling the car rental! :lol:
Looking forward to seeing you again in Orlando or anywhere else....

Yep, that's the plan! Aiming for another Mustang ragtop, too.

Bill, don't make me hold your feet to the fire on this one old buddy. :wink:
 

idealassets

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Bill, Wow 5pages of replies. Here's what I say:
1. It is not unusual for a supply of guild F412 and F512 new ad used guitars to sell out within days. Lots of players in Europe, Japan, and elsewhere love these instruments, and have them shipped over to get one.

2. In Sept. 2010 I spotted about 15 of each, F412 & F512 in dealer's inventories (Sam Ash, etc)

3. 2 weeks later I wanted to buy one and by that time all dealers were sold out and you had to order & wait 30-45 days for delivery. (I believe when word gets out they all sell even at retail ($2999 $3799 MSRP)

4. I then ordered an F512 and kept it and love it.

5. F412's are more common than F512's. F512's sound more melodic and orchestral, a beautiful sound. F412's show more wood grain, sound more raw, perhaps a blues or rock sound. But I think they both sound great.

6. A Guild F412 or F512 has that vintage sound and classical appeal.

7. You have to warm up to the instrument to being to bring out "your" sound, but it doesn't take long.

8. If you go to sell your D40 let us know on LTG. I don't have one yet.

Best wishes,
Craig
 

jte

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As a former Guild dealer (I managed a guitar store from '77 - '88) and one who has remained close to the retail environment since then, I have a few thoughts on Guild dealers, or the lack thereof...

Understand first, the Guilds have always been a fringe market overall in guitars. No matter who has owned them, they've suffered from poor marketing and a perception of being "not as good as...". When the guy I wound up working for opened his store in the area back in '69 and started selling Guilds in town, the Gibson dealer told people (who believed him!!) that Guilds were Gibson seconds that had been rejected by the Epiphone dealers. Outside of John Denver and Tommy Smothers (a great guitarist BTW, but not known for that) during the hey-day of acoustic guitar sales, Guild pretty much didn't register on the general public's radar. While Gibson had free advertising from Pete Townsend, Graham Nash, John Lennon, Emmylou Harris, etc. and Martin had the gods of acoustic music- Stephen Stills, Neil Young, David Crosby, Joni Mitchell, etc., Guild had very little to sell their guitars. Sure there was the shot of Clapton in his Cream days, but he was an electric guitarist. And besides, outside of the Guild ad, the only pictures of him with an acoustic were weird ones like the Zemitas and that funny Rick inside the cover of "Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs". And Tom Fogerty used a SF V, but that was the "other" Fogerty, not John. Oh, they did have an ad with Graham Parker and the Rumor, but seriously, compared to CSNY that's pointless...

So here's why I think it's so hard to find Guilds in stores....
A. Guilds have to be sold. By and large, people don't walk into a store looking for a Guild. They want a Taylor, Gibson, or Martin. And given the ruthless Wal-Mart business model that's driving retail now, SELLING is a luxury most stores can't afford. You have to take time to show the instruments, to explain them, and to assure people it's not a knock-off like Arbor, Reynolds, etc.

B. In the late '90s FMIC loaded up Fender dealers with a ton of Guild products. Just stupid levels- the local store at one time had three of the big fat archtops, three Starfire IVs, two Starfire IIIs, two Bluesbirds, several D-40's, and three F-47CEs, plus a bunch of others. And the next closest dealers had similar levels of stock. Now in this market, having ONE X-500 was probably silly, but three of them??!!? Of course they didn't make any money on them, and they didn't re-order Guilds. Now the dealers are burnt on them. No matter how good the sales staff thinks the guitars are, they already know they're a hard sell and low profit...

C. Then FMIC moved Guild's production from Westerly to Corona. Given the mindless nature of a lot of musicians, the Corona ones were defamed even before the announcement was a day old, let alone before anyone had actually touched a Corona Guild. In the interim, they couldn't ship guitars anyway.

D. Then the Corona ones come out, some aren't as good as they could have been, and then they close Corona and move to Tacoma. Same story, but now confidence by dealers is further depleted. Also, FMIC has pretty much stopped advertising the guitars so it looks like they're disappearing.

E. Tacoma had some serious problems with QC, even before FMIC bought the company. Those seemingly persisted after FMIC's purchase of the company and the stigma is attached now to Guilds.

F. Now they've moved yet again. The economy sucks big time and too many people equate Kaman with plasitc guitars. Plus they still by-and-large make Fender dealers the Guild dealers. That's a problem because now most Fender dealers are used to NOT working a sale. People walk in wanting a Strat, a Tele, a Precision, or a Jazz. All the sales drone has to do is find out how much money they can extract from the customer. Chances are that sales drone is going to show people a Taylor acoustic before a Guild. They can show the poster of Dave Matthews, Taylor Swift, etc. playing a Taylor. Those guitar are seductively easy to play, and have that god-awful sound that people now think an acoustic should sound like. No sales technique needed here. But to sell the Guild the drone actually has to be able to talk guitars..

I don't know what the solution is, but it's going to take concentrated efforts by FMIC marketing and the individual sales reps to build trust among dealers, to find dealers who'll care and work at it, and to do effective media marketing. Without that, there's simply no way to get Guilds out to the general public.

John
 

fronobulax

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jte said:
...
I don't know what the solution is, but it's going to take concentrated efforts by FMIC marketing and the individual sales reps to build trust among dealers, to find dealers who'll care and work at it, and to do effective media marketing. Without that, there's simply no way to get Guilds out to the general public.

John

And all this time I thought it was just low production numbers!

Thanks for the insight. I found the comments about "having to be sold" on the retail floor very interesting.
 

West R Lee

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jte said:
As a former Guild dealer (I managed a guitar store from '77 - '88) and one who has remained close to the retail environment since then, I have a few thoughts on Guild dealers, or the lack thereof...

Understand first, the Guilds have always been a fringe market overall in guitars. No matter who has owned them, they've suffered from poor marketing and a perception of being "not as good as...". When the guy I wound up working for opened his store in the area back in '69 and started selling Guilds in town, the Gibson dealer told people (who believed him!!) that Guilds were Gibson seconds that had been rejected by the Epiphone dealers. Outside of John Denver and Tommy Smothers (a great guitarist BTW, but not known for that) during the hey-day of acoustic guitar sales, Guild pretty much didn't register on the general public's radar. While Gibson had free advertising from Pete Townsend, Graham Nash, John Lennon, Emmylou Harris, etc. and Martin had the gods of acoustic music- Stephen Stills, Neil Young, David Crosby, Joni Mitchell, etc., Guild had very little to sell their guitars. Sure there was the shot of Clapton in his Cream days, but he was an electric guitarist. And besides, outside of the Guild ad, the only pictures of him with an acoustic were weird ones like the Zemitas and that funny Rick inside the cover of "Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs". And Tom Fogerty used a SF V, but that was the "other" Fogerty, not John. Oh, they did have an ad with Graham Parker and the Rumor, but seriously, compared to CSNY that's pointless...

So here's why I think it's so hard to find Guilds in stores....
A. Guilds have to be sold. By and large, people don't walk into a store looking for a Guild. They want a Taylor, Gibson, or Martin. And given the ruthless Wal-Mart business model that's driving retail now, SELLING is a luxury most stores can't afford. You have to take time to show the instruments, to explain them, and to assure people it's not a knock-off like Arbor, Reynolds, etc.

B. In the late '90s FMIC loaded up Fender dealers with a ton of Guild products. Just stupid levels- the local store at one time had three of the big fat archtops, three Starfire IVs, two Starfire IIIs, two Bluesbirds, several D-40's, and three F-47CEs, plus a bunch of others. And the next closest dealers had similar levels of stock. Now in this market, having ONE X-500 was probably silly, but three of them??!!? Of course they didn't make any money on them, and they didn't re-order Guilds. Now the dealers are burnt on them. No matter how good the sales staff thinks the guitars are, they already know they're a hard sell and low profit...

C. Then FMIC moved Guild's production from Westerly to Corona. Given the mindless nature of a lot of musicians, the Corona ones were defamed even before the announcement was a day old, let alone before anyone had actually touched a Corona Guild. In the interim, they couldn't ship guitars anyway.

D. Then the Corona ones come out, some aren't as good as they could have been, and then they close Corona and move to Tacoma. Same story, but now confidence by dealers is further depleted. Also, FMIC has pretty much stopped advertising the guitars so it looks like they're disappearing.

E. Tacoma had some serious problems with QC, even before FMIC bought the company. Those seemingly persisted after FMIC's purchase of the company and the stigma is attached now to Guilds.

F. Now they've moved yet again. The economy sucks big time and too many people equate Kaman with plasitc guitars. Plus they still by-and-large make Fender dealers the Guild dealers. That's a problem because now most Fender dealers are used to NOT working a sale. People walk in wanting a Strat, a Tele, a Precision, or a Jazz. All the sales drone has to do is find out how much money they can extract from the customer. Chances are that sales drone is going to show people a Taylor acoustic before a Guild. They can show the poster of Dave Matthews, Taylor Swift, etc. playing a Taylor. Those guitar are seductively easy to play, and have that god-awful sound that people now think an acoustic should sound like. No sales technique needed here. But to sell the Guild the drone actually has to be able to talk guitars..

I don't know what the solution is, but it's going to take concentrated efforts by FMIC marketing and the individual sales reps to build trust among dealers, to find dealers who'll care and work at it, and to do effective media marketing. Without that, there's simply no way to get Guilds out to the general public.

John

Hmm, :? ya don't say. Nah, I'm just kidding you John as I've been saying about the same thing for years. Furthermore, Fender is attempting to revive a very struggling product while asking what I consider to be outrageous prices for them. It's one thing to ask $2000 for a guitar with a shot of Taylor Swift playing one right next to the customer, but to ask $2000 for one that the younger generation especially has never heard of is just insane to me.

West
 

fronobulax

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West R Lee said:
I've been saying about the same thing for years.
For real!!!???

Just think of the conversations we would not have had if I had understood you sooner.


:lol:
 

West R Lee

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fronobulax said:
West R Lee said:
I've been saying about the same thing for years.
For real!!!???

Just think of the conversations we would not have had if I had understood you sooner.


:lol:

I was probably much more subtle Frono. :mrgreen:

West
 

chazmo

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jte, thanks for the well thought-out and historical post. Some thoughts...

I'm not sure I agree with you that Guild of the past was quite the fringe market you make it out to be. They made plenty of guitars back in the day, and personally I remember them among the great brands to shop for when I was buying my first acoustic back in 1981. One of my college friends had a gorgeous D-25 that I would've killed to have. Anyway. that said, it seems like I was probably the *only* one buying an acoustic in 1981. ;)

Another thing... I don't think Guild today is looking to be anything like what you described from the late '90s. Their model now is more boutique, although I expect they are working on a high-quality low-end as well. While you're right that there's an awful lot of Wal-Mart style stuff that Fender is used to these days, Guild clearly doesn't fit that mold. That said, the question at hand is really whether or not there are still enough of the old-style music stores around (at least in some areas) to get Guild where they want to be. I don't know, but I hope... In New England, the answer seems to be yes, but they need more than New England to survive, that's for sure.

The KMC connection may be something that dealers know, but the general public will have no understanding of that. What they know is Guild has been around a long time. [edit: my fear is that they may not know Guild still exists and has continued through the years... I remember being surprised that new Guilds were being produced when I came back to the brand in the mid oughts]

In any case, I think we all agree that it's an uphill battle for these guys, and certainly either a change to or simply an adjustment to an image which doesn't fit the Fender mindset. After all these years of mistakes, we can only hope that Fender can wrap their collective mind around this special brand that they bought 16 years ago!
 

adorshki

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West R Lee said:
fronobulax said:
[quote="West R Lee":3g9biqbb]I've been saying about the same thing for years.
For real!!!???
Just think of the conversations we would not have had if I had understood you sooner.
:lol:
I was probably much more subtle Frono. :mrgreen:
West[/quote:3g9biqbb]
Yep. Took me a while to catch on. :lol:
 

Bing k

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Great comments by jte as observed by a current retailer. The point "They have to be sold" is valid, but the reputation of the dealer and staff also play a pretty good part in the equation when it comes down to closing the sale. Once a player with any kind of ear strums one the job of selling becomes easier.

The price has gone up. No doubt about it. But talking to inside people I understand why. Fender has got to start making money on the line or it will be gone.

Edit to say, it may have been closer than anyone realizes after conversations over the last few months. There are some things in the works few outside have heard about but show promise from a dealers point of view of products to be introduced and marketing American production.
 

West R Lee

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And I can certainly understand that Fender has to make money off of them Bing. But I don't think most folks really understand what goes into building a guitar. You and I have some idea and it's why we're willing to pay a bunch of money for one. But if you don't have the established name like a Taylor or a Martin or a Gibson, I believe most folks will tell themselves for the same money, I can have an established brand name. I think that what many folks see in a Guild is just another pretty headstock.

Some folks that have played Guilds, Taylors, Martins and Gibsons and know what goes into guitar building understand, but the brunt of the guitar playing population does not......all they see is a name they do or do not recognize, and a price.

I think Guild is in a real pickle......what do you do? Do you build them like you know they should be built and charge enough to cover expenses and make a little money, or do you find a way to re-establish your name by building something you can charge less for, getting a lesser product into the hands of more people? I think Guild has attempted to do just that with the line they've come out with last year (sorry, I can't remember the name of that line). I don't know the answer to that one, and think it would be extremely difficult to really compete. It's got to be one or the other, and especially in this economy, I honestly don't see how Guild will ever make it. We'll see. Who buys Guild other than guys like us that know the name and have a real appreciation? Do people come into your store that don't know Guild, yet are so blown away that they buy one? Just a few folks, or do many customers do that? Unlike some, I think the entire mess was avoidable......I think Fender has brought this upon themselves, though that doesn't much matter now as the real question is how do they get out of it?

I wish them luck. :) And I wish you luck too Bing.

West
 

FNG

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Isn't that what Guild is doing, offering a wide variety of models, from the entry GAD series to Standard, then on to the Traditional line?

I just chuckle when people say new Guilds are too expensive.
 

West R Lee

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FNG said:
Isn't that what Guild is doing, offering a wide variety of models, from the entry GAD series to Standard, then on to the Traditional line?

I just chuckle when people say new Guilds are too expensive.

Yes they do Effin, in relation to the big manufacturers, are people buying them? And when I think of these guitars, I honestly don't consider Chinese built or Mexican built guitars, just the guitars that you and I might be interested in.

West
 

Bing k

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West R Lee said:
And I can certainly understand that Fender has to make money off of them Bing. But I don't think most folks really understand what goes into building a guitar. You and I have some idea and it's why we're willing to pay a bunch of money for one. But if you don't have the established name like a Taylor or a Martin or a Gibson, I believe most folks will tell themselves for the same money, I can have an established brand name. I think that what many folks see in a Guild is just another pretty headstock.

Some folks that have played Guilds, Taylors, Martins and Gibsons and know what goes into guitar building understand, but the brunt of the guitar playing population does not......all they see is a name they do or do not recognize, and a price.

I think Guild is in a real pickle......what do you do? Do you build them like you know they should be built and charge enough to cover expenses and make a little money, or do you find a way to re-establish your name by building something you can charge less for, getting a lesser product into the hands of more people? I think Guild has attempted to do just that with the line they've come out with last year (sorry, I can't remember the name of that line). I don't know the answer to that one, and think it would be extremely difficult to really compete. It's got to be one or the other, and especially in this economy, I honestly don't see how Guild will ever make it. We'll see. Who buys Guild other than guys like us that know the name and have a real appreciation? Do people come into your store that don't know Guild, yet are so blown away that they buy one? Just a few folks, or do many customers do that? Unlike some, I think the entire mess was avoidable......I think Fender has brought this upon themselves, though that doesn't much matter now as the real question is how do they get out of it?

I wish them luck. :) And I wish you luck too Bing.

West


Thanks West.

Edit: Upon further consideration of it's content I have edited my post.
 

West R Lee

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Bing k said:
[quote="West R Lee":1sqag3kk]And I can certainly understand that Fender has to make money off of them Bing. But I don't think most folks really understand what goes into building a guitar. You and I have some idea and it's why we're willing to pay a bunch of money for one. But if you don't have the established name like a Taylor or a Martin or a Gibson, I believe most folks will tell themselves for the same money, I can have an established brand name. I think that what many folks see in a Guild is just another pretty headstock.

Some folks that have played Guilds, Taylors, Martins and Gibsons and know what goes into guitar building understand, but the brunt of the guitar playing population does not......all they see is a name they do or do not recognize, and a price.

I think Guild is in a real pickle......what do you do? Do you build them like you know they should be built and charge enough to cover expenses and make a little money, or do you find a way to re-establish your name by building something you can charge less for, getting a lesser product into the hands of more people? I think Guild has attempted to do just that with the line they've come out with last year (sorry, I can't remember the name of that line). I don't know the answer to that one, and think it would be extremely difficult to really compete. It's got to be one or the other, and especially in this economy, I honestly don't see how Guild will ever make it. We'll see. Who buys Guild other than guys like us that know the name and have a real appreciation? Do people come into your store that don't know Guild, yet are so blown away that they buy one? Just a few folks, or do many customers do that? Unlike some, I think the entire mess was avoidable......I think Fender has brought this upon themselves, though that doesn't much matter now as the real question is how do they get out of it?

I wish them luck. :) And I wish you luck too Bing.

West


Thanks West.

Edit: Upon further consideration of it's content I have edited my post.[/quote:1sqag3kk]

How long have you carried Guild Bing? Mind my asking?

West
 

Bing k

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We started in the late Corona Years on new Product. We were not in business during production in New England.

Edit: Until Now :)
 
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