Tuning question

[Graham]

I'm learning a piece that I have on video. The tuning part of the video says that it is about 8 cents flat. While there is an audio to the video and I can tune to that, how would that be accomplished elsewhere? And what is exactly meant by 8 cents flat. I am assuming it is cents and not sense. Does that make sense? :shock:

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

Musical "Cents"

 

[fronobulax]

cents is a unit of measure for frequency or pitch. Some tuners will tell you how far you are off and give that measurement in cents. Personally I am more used to frequencies - concert A is 440 Hz but my A string is vibrating at 430 Hz so it is flat. They are trying to tell you that if you tune your guitar to "concert pitch" then you will have to detune it a bit to play along with the video. They probably thought they were being helpful by citing 8 cents but that only makes sense if your tuner reposts results in cents, which mine doesn't.

 

[Willy]

I think I just learned something I didn't know I needed to learn :?

 

[Graham]

Musical "Cents"

I suppose to you engineer types, this is funny? :shock:

 

[john_kidder]

Sure made me laugh.

But actually, Graham, the text provides the clearest explanation I've seen of a "cent" - 1200 cents to an octave = 100 per interval in an equal-tempered tuning. And the (average?) ear, they say, can distinguish between pitches that are more than 6 cents apart.

But why the recorders of your tune would intentionally record a piece 7 cents flat is beyond me - that's about A=438, and just enough off A=440 that one can hear it. Seems odd to me, but perhaps someone out there with more musical experience can explain?

 

[Graham]

But why the recorders of your tune would intentionally record a piece 7 cents flat is beyond me - that's about A=438, and just enough off A=440 that one can hear it. Seems odd to me, but perhaps someone out there with more musical experience can explain?

It's Lightfoots, If You Could Read My Mind. In standard tuning, capo 2 it does sound just a bit off.

My sense of tuning isn't the best to start with so I do keep a tuner near by. This slight change either sharp or flat, I know, will screw me up royally so I guess I need to keep the tune close.

 

[Willy]

Graham said:
I suppose to you engineer types, this is funny? :shock:

Exactly!

 

[Jeff]

Musical "Cents"

Thanks for the link Kurt,

Down in the Human Perception paragraph I found this reference, Not at all confident I wish to research the issue further.

Amusia

"Amusia refers to a number of disorders which are indicated by the inability to recognize musical tones or rhythms or to reproduce them. Amusia can be congenital (present at birth) or be acquired sometime later in life (as from brain damage). The term "amusia" is composed of "a-" + "-musia" which means the lack of music.

Recent research has suggested that the human brain has neural networks specifically for the processing of music, and suggests that amusia is caused primarily by a deficiency in fine-grained perception of pitch.[1]


[edit] See also
Tone deafness"

 

[The Guilds of Grot]

Did anyone click on the audio examples of the "cents" spread.

I couldn't hear the difference in any of them.

I guess I better go read the link that Jeff posted!

 

[Steelpickin']

One of the dark secrets of the guitar: guitars don't play perfectly in tune. Actually, all fixed tuning instruments, such as piano, play slightly out of tune.

It is impossible to place the frets on the guitar so that all notes on the instrument will be perfectly in tune in every key -- simply impossible, because of the way tuning works.

There are two basic types of tuning in western music: Pythagorean and tempered. Pythagorean tuning is named after the mathematician who created all those theorems that taunted us in high-school math classes. He discovered the mathematical principles of intonation, such as a pitch whose frequency is twice as high as another pitch is one octave higher. His principles explain mathematically the perfect tuning for each step in the octave.

The problem with Pythagorean tuning is that it works only within one key. In other words, if you tune all the notes on a piano so that the notes are perfectly in tune in the key of C, they will be out of tune when playing in other keys.

Intonation used to cause many problems. For example, in the olden days, when a lute player needed to play a piece in another key, he had to actually move the frets on his lute (lute frets were made of gut for just this reason). Some harpsichordists actually retuned their strings to switch keys.

So, to handle this, a tuning system called "tempered tuning" was developed (maybe it was named after a harpsichordist who got really mad from having to constantly retune). Tempered tuning places all the notes at a slightly compromised frequency to yield good, but not perfect, tuning in all keys.

Tempered tuning applies to guitars as well. The frets on a guitar neck are laid at specific positions to yield a good compromise in tuning, but a guitar can not possibly play perfectly in tune in all keys.

....or.....to hell with all the technical jargon!! by one of these inexpensive tuners...you can set them sharp or flat!! ( 410-480 HZ ) They work very well and are cheap enough that you can afford to keep one in every guitar case ( i do) :wink:


http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/ ... sku=210527

 

[Graham]

Did anyone click on the audio examples of the "cents" spread.

I couldn't hear the difference in any of them.

Krap, they didn't sound different to me either.

Any room on that short bus trip to Jeff's Kurt? :roll:

 

[Brad Little]

Steelpickin' said >Tempered tuning applies to guitars as well. The frets on a guitar neck are laid at specific positions to yield a good compromise in tuning, but a guitar can not possibly play perfectly in tune in all keys.<

Yes, and we all hear it a bit differently. I began to use an 'A' fork to tune to in the early 70s. Recently, I've begun using electronic tuners,and I find that after I match their pitches exactly, I have to detune slightly to match my ear. I think pedal steel players have an even greater problem tuning because of the stress of knee levers and such.

Brad

 

[JerryR]

Musical "Cents"

I suppose to you engineer types, this is funny? :shock:

Ouch - technical stuff :shock:
......__
B4i\/ u ru/16

As the mathematician said to the young girl :roll:

 

[Steelpickin']

You are correct brad4d8, I tune my pedal steel likes this:


E9 Neck
E9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
F# G#
Eb E D-C#
G# A
E F# F Eb
B C# C# Bb
G# A F#
F#
E F Eb
D C#
B C# Bb

C6 Neck
C6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
D
E F
C D B
A B B
G F#
E Eb
C C#
A B
F F# E
C D A

 

[john_kidder]

E9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR

C6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR

For those among us who are wholly ignorant of how to tune or play a pedal steel, but delight in the wonderful sounds, can you decode the above?

And is one neck tuned in an open E9, the other in an open C6? Wild.

 

[Graham]

Can I detract the question.

I'm sorry everyone. :shock:

 

[Steelpickin']

No way, Graham!!...Look at what you have done!!!
:wink: :wink: :mrgreen: LOL!!!....when you get to playing along with the video clip as you first mentioned...just tune to match the clip.....afterwards,...tune back to standerd. Thats what the rest of us do.
It's supposed to be a secret!!! :wink:


...for anyone else interested:
http://b0b.com/tunings/index.html

 

[Graham]

No way, Graham!!...Look at what you have done!!!
:wink: :wink: :mrgreen: LOL!!!....when you get to playing along with the video clip as you first mentioned...just tune to match the clip.....afterwards,...tune back to standerd. Thats what the rest of us do.
It's supposed to be a secret!!! :wink:


...for anyone else interested:
http://b0b.com/tunings/index.html

Tune it back!! :shock:

Christ almighty. (He said, not really wanting to take The Lords name in vane or anything like that, I guess)

 

[fronobulax]

Yes, and we all hear it a bit differently. I began to use an 'A' fork to tune to in the early 70s. Recently, I've begun using electronic tuners,and I find that after I match their pitches exactly, I have to detune slightly to match my ear.

I used to use a pitch pipe and then "5th fret" and harmonics. When I finally switched to an electronic tuner the results sounded much better to me. This was even true after I tuned the old way and then with the tuner because I couldn't believe my ear was that bad.