Tone of new vs. vintage (D55)

[krugjr]

zeboma.....PM'd you...

 

[kostask]

In well made, solid wood guitars, it is extremely rare for the tone of a guitar to get worse over time. Most, in fact, I would think it would be in the >99% if the time, tone does improve. this will manifest itself in better, more defined highs, somewhat better lows, more overtones, and increased volume. There have been studies on the subject by some hand builders in the past, and it comes down to something called lignin (tree resin in the guitar's top) distribution. The phenomenon is basically that the guitar top is slightly heated every time that the guitar is played (due to the flexing of the top). When the top heats up, the lignin flows easier, and the vibration of the top re-distributes the lignin. The heating effect is very, very minor, which is why it takes a long time for the guitar to open up, and also explains why guitars that haven't been played for a while "go to sleep" (the lignin slowly becomes more uniform as time passes, so the whole process needs to be repeated).

This doesn't change the basic principle that a guitar, no matter how new, should sound good to you if you are considering buying it. It is only going to get better. Buying a guitar that doesn't sound good to you, and hoping that it gets better is not a good idea, because nobody knows how much of an improvement will happen.

 

[merlin6666]

There have been studies on the subject by some hand builders in the past, and it comes down to something called lignin (tree resin in the guitar's top) distribution. The phenomenon is basically that the guitar top is slightly heated every time that the guitar is played (due to the flexing of the top). When the top heats up, the lignin flows easier, and the vibration of the top re-distributes the lignin.

Thank you for an explanation of a mechanism for the short term and reversible warming-up/waking-up process that I described earlier. And now that you mentioned it, in addition to a warmer tone in my guitar that had been stored for more than 30 years I also noticed a vast abundance of overtones, certainly more than in my new Orpheum. Though this may not necessarily be perceived as an advantage for all playing styles.

 

[adorshki]

Thank you for an explanation of a mechanism for the short term and reversible warming-up/waking-up process that I described earlier. And now that you mentioned it, in addition to a warmer tone in my guitar that had been stored for more than 30 years I also noticed a vast abundance of overtones, certainly more than in my new Orpheum. Though this may not necessarily be perceived as an advantage for all playing styles.

Yep, just like my assumption that increased decay time would be defined as a "good" thing. That touches on the difference between archback versus flatback characteristics, and the perception that a flatback would be preferred by fingerpickers for less sustain and overtones muddying up individual notes.
Another factor coming into play generically though is that top resonance is the underlying source of all sounds and anything that increases that resonance is normally seen as a "good" thing.
Tops do get dryer (resin gets dried out too) as they get older, this makes 'em more resonant and that's also true of NCL finish.
Another method brought up before is the extended (like for a couple of years at least) "brining" of woods intended to leach out the resins/oils and create a more resonant top right from the get-go. There's evidence Stradivari did this with at least some of his wood.
Also the cellulose fibers of the wood itself become mechanically worn from flexing, this probably increases the ability of the top to resonate and might explain the "tight" sounding new top vs the broken-in top with more overtones.
Torrefaction is the latest buzzword/process which theoretically does both of the things that brining and simple aging does in a shorter time, and I can see the validity of the principle there too.
So there are a lot of mechanical physics that explain how "opening up" actually occurs, but I'm still with you on whether or not it's perceptible or necessarily a "good" thing to any given player.
What I'm getting curious about now is whether a guitar like an Orpheum that does sound so good when new will evidence "opening up" to the degree of guitars built to less exacting standards.
@ZEBOMA:
Guild also did extensive development of build techniques with the DV series (V for "Vintage") which were intended to sound "vintage" right out of the box and are pretty universally loved by their owners:
From the '97 catalog:
"...the product of years of research in how to tune the bodies and tops of these dreadnoughts to sound like vintage guitars.
...back and sides that have been sanded down...neck and endblocks have been specially selected for light weight and superior strength...top is double-A graded sitka spruce."
'Hog body DV-6's got shaved braces and top of the line DV-52 got scalloped.
In fact as far as I can tell for that year, according to the catalog, the only thing D55's got that DV-52's didn't was a wide headstock, a 3-piece neck, and the upgrade inlays on the rosette and fretboard.
I think it's been mentioned before that these would be well worth checking out unless you really want that D55 "bling". (Can't recall)

 

[zeboma]

Yeah, I don't really care bout bling. I will say I just came from store with New Hartford ("NP" serial number start makes it a 2014?) and it sounded incredible. Like wow. Now I'm going to play a late 70s D55 tonight and see how it holds up against today's Wow. THEN I'm hoping the eBay lister w/2012 mint/sunburst/DTAR will let me come try it out.

Almost there.....!

 

[txbumper57]

Yeah, I don't really care bout bling. I will say I just came from store with New Hartford ("NP" serial number start makes it a 2014?) and it sounded incredible. Like wow. Now I'm going to play a late 70s D55 tonight and see how it holds up against today's Wow. THEN I'm hoping the eBay lister w/2012 mint/sunburst/DTAR will let me come try it out.

Almost there.....!

Th "NP" designation would make it a 2012 model. "N" for New Hartford and "P" for 2012. If it was a 2013 It would have an "NQ" desgnation and a 2014 it would have a "NR" designation.

 

[zeboma]

I'm starting to lean in the new, New Hartford direction. The one I played today had wonderful tone, and the neck was just unbelievably easy.

But I guess you all would believe or you wouldn't be lurking around this forum like this! eaceful:

 

[merlin6666]

In fact as far as I can tell for that year, according to the catalog, the only thing D55's got that DV-52's didn't was a wide headstock, a 3-piece neck, and the upgrade inlays on the rosette and fretboard.
I think it's been mentioned before that these would be well worth checking out unless you really want that D55 "bling". (Can't recall)

What I like about the DV52 (and I think some of the earlier D55s as well) is the gorgeous herringbone rosette, to me this is way more appealing than Abalone. I had the opportunity to play one in my luthier's store last year, and wow it sure felt hefty, built like a tank.

 

[adorshki]

What I like about the DV52 (and I think some of the earlier D55s as well) is the gorgeous herringbone rosette, to me this is way more appealing than Abalone. I had the opportunity to play one in my luthier's store last year, and wow it sure felt hefty, built like a tank.

Personally I prefer the abalone especially 'cause it's real, but there's a lot of guys that like that herringbone. I think '94 was crossover year, '96 catalog shows it with ab rosette.

 

[zeboma]

Thanks for the tip, though I sure don't see many/any DV52s on eBay/Reverb/craigslist. Would be interested to try one if I could

 

[strummer]

Both my guilds are fairly 'vintage".('66 d-40,'74 f-50)so I can't speak to any changes in tone before I owned 'em but I have noticed that the older guitars sound vastly different about 45 -60 minutes after I start playing.If they've sat for a while the difference is astounding,and very nice to hear.My experience w/ New Hartford guitars is limited to only 3 or 4 but they were all light,easy to play,and sounded wonderful.Easily as nice as either of mine,and that's saying quite a bit as the 2 I have are great.

 

[zeboma]

So the one other guitar I'm considering is this one: 2012, Mint, DTAR, no warranty, don't know if it's even been played....is gorgeous and I swoon when I look at the pics. The seller is not responding when I ask if I can drive to Long Island to see it in person (I don't know how in the heck one can buy without trying, or having return option. he doesn't give return option, but it sure looks sweet........I welcome my posse's opinion

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131691766312?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[merlin6666]

I was seriously looking for a D55 about a year ago and checking all offers and at that time around 2600 was at the higher end for a brand new one from dealer with warranty. Now supplies are lower and who knows when fresh ones from Oxnard will ship and what they will be like. If it was me I'd be hanging in for a better price of a used one.

 

[zeboma]

Well I just tried the friends 70s D55 and I wasn't blown away--meaning my earlier play of a 2012 stood the test. It's tone is amazing, even with less than 4 years under its bridge rather than 40.....leaning more heavily NEW (Hartford)....

 

[krugjr]

the used ones don't all have DTAR...they're not all Burst...few have a return policy...none have warr...and if they're under 2000 there's usually a good reason for it, and that means back to "how many of these do I have to try out in order to find one that sounds like the one I played today?".....those with a stable full of guitars can afford to look, take their time, and try several diff things.....those wanting their first real nice Guild can "afford" to allow a little emotion to enter into the equation...IMO....go with your gut.....maybe offer 2K on the ebay one and make it official....at least they'll have to respond.....good luck, and keep it fun!

 

[txbumper57]

http://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showth...ford-D55-w-DTAR-2000-obo-Burst-Finish-on-Ebay

This one just popped up on Ebay today. Thought I would post it here so you could take a look Zeboma. Also on the earlier comment referring to the DV52 models. They are great guitars and quite a bargain for the range they sell in, but they aren't a D55. They may be equivalent to the Westerly D55's that were made in the same time period but not to a New Hartford Model in my opinion. If you are looking for a Cadillac like I think you are according to your previous purchases, (Tacoma D55, Westerly F50R) then a D55 is all that will fit the bill. Best of luck in your search and I am glad you got to play a New Hartford model and now understand what some of us here are talking about when we refer to them as having "Magic" in their tone and feel.

TX

 

[krugjr]

Nice find, TX......zeboma, where are you?????

 

[zeboma]

Wow....thanks TX. I just made him an offer (full price! Just wanted it verified in writing that there are no other issues beyond the nicks he mentioned and hopefully be first in line as I think this would get snapped up quick)

I live about 4 hours away and I think I would be so excited, and have been so traumatized by UPS that I think I'd be happy to do the roundtrip and get it!

 

[txbumper57]

I would double check and make sure that he would give you a 72 hour approval period to let you have it inspected by your luthier. Just to make sure there are no issues. I won't buy an acoustic online if they won't give me that inspection period. The other thing to check is to make sure that it has the DTAR Multisource system that has the mic mounted at the bottom of the sound hole on the sound hole control circuit board. That is the latest version of the pickup and should be the one used in a 2012 model. Even though this is a 2012 New Hartford model and Guild was relatively consistent across the board in quality and tone at the time this one was made, There is No Guarantee that it will have the same tone and Feel of the D55 you played today new in the shop. Also there is no warranty with this one. One last thing, If you are planning to go and pick this one up you may be able to get him to remove it from Ebay and do a deal in person for $1800 cash which would be his Ebay Price minus the 10% ebay fees if it sold at his asking price of $2000. Good luck in whatever you decide!

TX

 

[zeboma]

Hey tx--It says it's a 2011, not 2012.

Was there that big a difference between the older and newer DTAR?

I'm thinking I probably might be needing to just use all the knowledge I've acquired lately to be my own luthier and inspect on the spot. 1) don't think I could get it to a luthier within 3 days, and 2) don't think I could do the round trip again to return it! If that happens, I'm sure I'll be polling the collective here to make sure I do every known check there is for non-luthiers inspecting guitars *EDiT: maybe I could ask about a 7-day luthier-check time rather than 3-day.

This one is a good $760 less than the one in the store....that's a chunk of change. I don't amplify that much, pretty much only so I can use my looper, and get a little reverb, so even if I thought the older DTAR stunk I could have a K&K put in instead for 200.

I get a good feel here (sure, I'm biased: crazy about sunburst D55s and really liking the price). The fact that he clearly isn't a price-gouging shark, offering that kind of price; the fact he said he'd pay for the shipping; the fact he looks to be a musician.....all point in a good direction, methinks. He doesn't have much of an eBay history, but neither do I (in the lst year anyways)

And I think I won't even go for the "let's do this outside eBay and I'll pay you less and you can save on fees"--since the price is already darned good. If I stay within eBay, that could conceivably give me some recourse should I discover once I get home there's some catastrophically bad problem (can't even imagine what that could be)

If cooler heads want to chime in with important perspectives that might cool this head, please do. At the moment, I'm hoping he wakes up and accepts my offer, and I begin the first leg of a drive Friday night, pick it up Saturday morning!

Ugh, just noticed it has Elixirs on it--so much for hearing what the guitar sounds like! (sorry, cheap elixir dig!)