Tone of new vs. vintage (D55)

[zeboma]

Just wondering (and yes, I know, it's a preference thing, and "listen for yourself," do an A/B etc!)....

Your opinions of a vintage sound (70s) compared to new guitar? I'm looking at 2 different D55s right now: one from 1977 (the forecast from luthier on this one looks good), and one from 2012 ($700 more, but with D-TAR, mint condition, sunburst).

I think I read here someone saying Guilds don't "open up" to the extent that say a Martin does. Apart from my F50R, I haven't really been able to hear a vintage Guild, but know that I generally love the vintage sound (Martins).

I can't do an A/B on these guitars (except with an hour's driving between A and B!), so just welcome folks weighing in here

 

[chazmo]

That's a complicated question, zeboma. You won't get a meaningful answer from me because I'm not much of an advocate in buying a guitar expecting it to "open up." If you don't like the tone you hear, maybe try a new set of strings, but otherwise say bye-bye. Of course, there are always more factors than just tone to consider, but I'd wager that most LTGers are fans of Guild axes because they love the tone.

Are you saying you now one both guitars? Or are you counting on some return period? I'm confused because you mentioned that the '77 is at the luthiers, and I presume that's at your expense? Anyway, sorry, just confused...

"New" Guild guitars, such as those from 2009 - 2014 from New Hartford, were lighter builds than some of their earlier predecessors. A 2012 NH-build D-55 will have been part of that trend... light everything. It started in Tacoma, I think, but really peaked in NH. By contrast, in 1977, it's possible that Guild was using heavy neck wood the D-55. I'm not sure what this guitar will have, but I think it'll be built heavier than the Tacoma.

Anyway, I think both will be wonderful instruments. I hope the '77 turns out well after your luthier humidifies it and glues it back up.

 

[zeboma]

Thanks, Chaz. Clarification: the '77 is at the luthier's (not my luthier, but in NYC where the seller lives). i don't own that, but could, post-repair, if I want.

And your explaining the lighter build in recent years helps: I played a brand new, New Hartford D55 in the store the other day, and while it was nice, it didn't sound as solid as the '08 Tacoma I briefly owned (way back in November, w/the trashed rod). I really liked the balance, and strength--including treble--of the '08 that I didn't hear/feel quite as strong with the brand new one I tried the other day. The new one sounded a little more delicate, chimier than the '08. This tells me I might be more of a vintage guy.

--The other thing I'll add is that while I briefly owned the '08, I did go to a great boutique store and was able to play the '08 D55 side-by-side with Collings and Bourgeouis.....and to my ear, the D55 beat 'em all. The others were great, but they had that tight, not-opened sound that I don't like, and the store owner said "yes, it takes at least several years for that wood and sound to start opening up." No thanks! He himself admitted the D55 sounded just about as good if not better than the $4500 Bourgeois!

 

[richardp69]

I'm not much of an advocate in buying a guitar expecting it to "open up." If you don't like the tone you hear, maybe try a new set of strings, but otherwise say bye-bye.

For me, Chazmo's comment is spot on. That being said, I nearly always prefer the vintage instrument. Not so much because of any significant tonal differences but more that I love to think about where that old guitar has been, who's held it and everything else that goes along with its history.

 

[chazmo]

. . . I played a brand new, New Hartford D55 in the store the other day, and while it was nice, it didn't sound as solid as the '08 Tacoma I briefly owned (way back in November, w/the trashed rod). I really liked the balance, and strength--including treble--of the '08 that I didn't hear/feel quite as strong with the brand new one I tried the other day. The new one sounded a little more delicate, chimier than the '08. This tells me I might be more of a vintage guy. . .

Zeboma, well, you have to go with your ears. Maybe the '77 will be your ticket, but otherwise pass on the new one you tried.

On a tangential note, be sure you try a Tacoma or NH D-50. IMO, very different sound from the D-55, but you might like the punch.

 

[Neal]

If it were me, I would invest the hour of drive time between Guitar A and B, and use your phone to record both in as similar a way as possible.

Experience has taught me that each guitar, regardless of age, must be considered on its own merits. And something I love might not be something you do.

 

[merlin6666]

I think the concept of "opening up" is a myth and just reflects the listener's hearing change and adjusting/getting used to the tone of the guitar. There are the chemical and physical changes that occur when wood ages over decades which is a long-term and irreversible process. But what specifically that means to tone is difficult to say. There is also a change to the guitar when it is initially stiff if it has not been used for a while and then warms up with a bit of playing, which is a short term and reversible. These things should not be taken into account for a purchase decision. As mentioned above, try to play both, ideally with identical strings and in a similar environment to minimize any external factors that can affect tone. I assume there will also be other things such as neck size/shape differences that could be considerable and affect the playing pleasure.

 

[Br1ck]

I had a chance to buy a New Hartford factory second when they were selling them cheap to dealers, and probably would have if I had not just bought a Martin 00 15 custom. It had horrible, and I mean horrible finish issues, ugly deep finish checking and what looked like 2" strip of tape residue (although it was in the finish), all this over a beautiful sunburst. I had just played every Martin dread they had, and the D 55 to me was significantly better, and I love Martins. Anyhow, I would have paid the $1500 and closed my eyes, but not two weeks after buying my 00. Timing is everything.

It was a great light build and very balanced. I would love to play one from when they were custom order. I tend to like the light builds better.

 

[adorshki]

I think the concept of "opening up" is a myth and just reflects the listener's hearing change and adjusting/getting used to the tone of the guitar.

Merlin don't get me wrong but we're on opposite sides of the fence on this, and this is more for Zeboma's ( or soembody else new to the topic)'s benefit
I do feel particularly qualified to offer an opinion because I have in fact owned 3 different Guilds since new and over the course of their lives 2 of them have in fact increased the time it takes for a note to decay to complete silence . ( I haven't measured the F65ce recently)
Since nobody ever seems to offer a measurable definition of "opening up", I arbitrarily picked an acoustic characteristic that was very easy for me to measure and replicate: "decay time".
I'll skip the test methodology for now, but:
The D40 in particular was always the "sonic runt" of the litter and over the last couple of years its sustain (as measured by the observation noted above, decay time) has in fact increased.
I'm absolutely certain volume has increased too but I never had an easy at-hand way to measure that.
I think the single most important factor affecting/"improving" tone is not so much simple age as accumulated playing time.
The D25 had a "big moment" at about 200 hours, that only took a little over a year, and actually I wouldn't have thought it could happen that way if I hadn't experienced it myself.
The D40 got a lot less playing time and only got into the 200 hour neighborhood about a year and a half ago, but it's now jalmost twelve years old as well.
I do recall somebody well-respected in the world of luthiery offering an observation that most guitars hit their prime at 10-15 years, but I can't recall exctly who it was, either Bob Taylor or somebody associated with Fender come to mind, but they were quoted here.
Fianlly, recently we had another discussion about the phenomenon and our member Christopher Cozad made some points a bit more elegantly than I could, see post #28 in this thread:
http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?185145-Acoustic-Guitar-Opening-Up/page2
In fact you participated in that one so you might recall it, but I'm linking it more for the benefit of Zeboma since as you mention yourself there really are a lot of things going on as a guitar ages, like how NCL continues to get lighter and more resonant as it ages..
To me the real question for Zeboma would be "Do you want to own the guitar for a long time and "grow old" with it?"
It sounds like you're saying "No".
I bought mine "for keeps" but I could never replicate the playng time they have now, so I get when folks want to look for an aged tone and not wait for it.

 

[adorshki]

And your explaining the lighter build in recent years helps: I played a brand new, New Hartford D55 in the store the other day, and while it was nice, it didn't sound as solid as the '08 Tacoma I briefly owned (way back in November, w/the trashed rod). I really liked the balance, and strength--including treble--of the '08 that I didn't hear/feel quite as strong with the brand new one I tried the other day. The new one sounded a little more delicate, chimier than the '08. This tells me I might be more of a vintage guy.

One other variable might have been strings: Do you know what the NH was fitted with? They were designed for and shipped with coated mediums, Tacomas came with uncoated lights.
On top of that stuff I mentioned in the previous post. :friendly_wink:

 

[merlin6666]

.
To me the real question for Zeboma would be "Do you want to own the guitar for a long time and "grow old" with it?"
It sounds like you're saying "No".
I bought mine "for keeps" but I could never replicate the playng time they have now, so I get when folks want to look for an aged tone and not wait for it.

The point I was trying to make is not to let any potential future changes affect his decision to buy or not buy but rather focus on the here and now. Nobody knows when a guitar is bought if and how often it will be played and if future aging will improve or deteriorate the tone. If you buy an already aged guitar and you like its tone, we don't know if this due to its age (played or not) or if it already sounded great when it was brand new. It's also not known if there is point where aging stops or if it will go on and in what direction.

My main reference is my first "good" guitar that I bought in the 70's which is a Suzuki with "Jacaranda" body. In the store it competed with 3 D-18s that had a similar price tag, but just did not produce the sparkling highs and kick of this guitar. I played it a bit for a few years and it eventually went into storage for about 30 years when I moved away. About two years ago I resurrected it with some new PBs. It still looks and smells like when it was new, but the sound has changed dramatically. Instead of the crisp and sharp highs that appealed to me when it was young, it now has a fairly mellow and warm sound and is probably more balanced. I am not sure if I would call that opening up, just ageing. Could also have to do with my memory and ability to hear higher frequencies. But the question remains up to opinion if and how frequent playing contributes to tonal changes, and of course if any changes over time are also an improvement is also subjective. I find that over time as I get attached to an instrument and I just like it more and more ...

 

[adorshki]

and of course if any changes over time are also an improvement is also subjective.

Yep, good point.

 

[walrus]

One other variable might have been strings: Do you know what the NH was fitted with? They were designed for and shipped with coated mediums, Tacomas came with uncoated lights.
On top of that stuff I mentioned in the previous post. :friendly_wink:

Ah, a string veer!

But seriously, I agree with Al - I bought my D64 new in 1984, and it has clearly "opened up" in the sense that it got louder. I was not paying enough attention to be able to tell you "when", and in fact would argue it happened rather gradually. But again, purely subjective, with no factual evidence.

walrus

 

[Neal]

Playing devil's advocate here, but I reach for my New Hartford Guilds far more often than my Westerlies...

Apples and oranges, given the differences in bracing and weight, so Z, go with your ears and not your eyes.

One thing I will add is this: None of my New Harford Guilds have had a single thing wrong with them (other than the D-55 prototype, which needed TLC after being cast into the Fender abyss).

 

[krugjr]

zeboma.....only 700 more for the 2012 with DTAR and Sunburst? (before or after negotiating?).......WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!!!!! grab it! IMHO.....only been around LTG, and Guilds in general, the last 6 mo or so.....with great advice here I started with 2014 F50R DTAR.....WOW...AWESOME....yeah, that good......then while considering my next Guild move I got the vintage bug, similar to you, bought 2, tried real hard to like the sound/tone/play-abilty etc.....sent one back and sold the other.....then got a 2007 D50BG (Tacoma) and a 2010 D40BG (New Hartford)...both twice the guitar for the same money, no comparison.....like Merlin said, every guitar is different.....a new guitar could have that "vintage" tone, and a vintage guitar can sound like a new one...ya just don't know...so out come all our opinions that are just our experiences and how "we" hear and describe tone.....what I believe I have learned is that most "vintage" Guilds are over priced (and you may have to try out a lot of them to find a real value) and when you find a "deal" on a newer build, I say it is a better investment of funds..again IMO.....some like to "search and refurbish", some like to "buy and play music"..... I believe Tacoma and New Hartford will get you playing sooner!

 

[zeboma]

Thanks krug, that helps. Good news is this: the '77 is in the luthier's, and I won't proceed/do anything stupid without his thorough assessment, then my schlepping to New York to play it, and maybe buy it. I'm also going back to a local store tomorrow, to play a new New Hartford (NT, non-negotiable list price of $2650 plus MA sales tax--not going to do that). THEN, Saturday night I'm going to a party where a friend has a late 70s D55 which he adores, and I will get to play again.

The brand new (but no warranty) SB w/D-TAR is on eBay. The seller appears to have ignored my message asking "hey, can I come see it in person cuz I don't wanna buy without trying, and I'd rather not do any winter shipping"....he's probably thinking I'm just a troll/scammer, and i'm not sure how to convince him otherwise (he's asking 2600, and I offered 2400, saving him money on eBay fees and getting him more money......but again, he's ignored me, so......) So, one way or another, resolution is on the horizon. I know I love D55s. I would have kept the first if the truss rod wasn't trashed. It was an '08, and sounded great. I WILL get there!

 

[krugjr]

zeboma.....the only one I can see on ebay, D55 DTAR Burst for 2600 or best offer, is listed as used but mint condition.....if that's the one you're looking at, and you made an "official" offer of 2400, they should accept, reject or counter offer within so many hrs.....I didn't check out the seller like I do when I'm shopping, but what is a negative for me in the listing is no serial number shown, no build year listed, and all the information is stock info from Guild, nothing personal about the history of the guitar, and "no returns"..... not always bad stuff, but I like a listing that tells me something about the guitar and the seller besides stock info, and if it's really good product, seller should at least negotiate some kind of a return even if first listed without....and they should respond to your questions and offers if they want to get something sold......is the 2650 new one at local store with or without DTAR? keep in mind, new, with full factory lifetime warr to orig owner, is worth about 300-500 extra, at least to me (I'm no luthier), so 2500-2600 is not a bad price for some of the last new D55s from New Hartford.....I got to play a new D55 last summer, glad I could compare one to my F50R, hadn't been played at all, seemed a little bright and tight (does that go with not broken in yet??) but over all I preferred the warmer tone with the F50R, but man, that neck was just like an electric jazz guitar, awesome.....2500 was the price to me, w/o DTAR, tempting, but I couldn't own both at the time, and I preferred the F50R for my style of playing, so I passed.....sounds like you'll have a fun few days coming up.....enjoy the chase!

 

[zeboma]

I asked the guy backchannel, and he gave serial number which puts it as a February 2012 build.

Maybe I should "Make an Offer" and assume there's one more "Confirm" button after I make the offer and he accepts....or is it binding just by having made it? It is kind of a drag he hasn't answered my backchannel offers

Have also considered this, $2500, no sales tax, with warranty
https://reverb.com/item/1379470-gui...rvised-build-n-o-s-with-original-case-and-box

 

[DuaneAllman]

Sorry Merlin....I have to disagree. I can actually hear a guitar (that has been sitting in a humidified room for a while) open up right in my hands. My D50 (1978) does it almost every time I play it.

Not to mention, I have a Maple Jumbo that is 7 years old.....it sounds completely different (in a good way) than it did on day 1. Same strings, same set-up. I have the recordings to prove it (same condenser mic even!).

 

[DuaneAllman]

I am a firm believer that you can hear vintage tone over new tone when talking acoustic guitars. All depends on how your ear is trained really.

I recorded my 1978 D50 on my iPHone and sent the 30 second recording to a friend by text saying: "like my new guitar?". I didn't tell him what the guitar was......his response was "it sounds wonderfully old!".