The Oxnard Guild’s have a bolt on neck joint?

[kostask]

Amongst many hand builders, the thought is that bolt neck guitars transfer more energy than glued necks do. What you have in bolt neck guitars is a pair of surfaces that are mated together under tension. What you have in a current glued neck is mating surfaces is a pair of surfaces separated by aliphatic glue, and aliphatic glue never dries fully hard. That glue will interfere with energy transfer. That is the theory. Hide glue obviously changes this, but not many are using hide glue these days.

Practically speaking, it will be impossible to hear the difference between a glued neck joint and a good bolt neck joint.

 

[adorshki]

Gents I edited the original post as I realized that I sounded like a purist and that I might even be wrong, before I saw all the rest of the replies.
Kostas, yeah, I meant specifically hide glue since it's the only one that crystallizes and which was the only thing they used in Westerly.
I was justifying why I thought hide-glue set neck would be the hypothetical ideal, "hypothetical" being the operative term here.
Obviously some guys have put a different philosophy into excellent practical use.
Tom, as I say you may right about 2 surfaces mated under tension being a better vibration transmission method, but, purely for the sake of exploring the subject, do you think the clamping pressure affects the transmission efficiency as I wondered?

 

[davismanLV]

I think that with all other things being equal with an instrument such as a guitar, that if you have two well executed neck joints with one being bolt on and the other being dovetailed and glued that the human ear (or the great majority of them) wouldn't be able to tell the difference. So if the bolt on is just as good or possibly better and it makes any further adjustments to the neck angle during the lifetime of the guitar SO much easier and less expensive, it becomes a smart way to do things.

 

[Bill Ashton]

Huss and Dalton uses a bolt-on neck joint, not sure if with or without glue. Of my two, one is hide glue-one is not, do not know if that is used in the neck joint in addition.

In my several trips to New Hartford, I never saw hide glue used, though I may have missed it; the glue of choice there seems to be Tite Bond II.

 

[tommym]

In my several trips to New Hartford, I never saw hide glue used, though I may have missed it; the glue of choice there seems to be Tite Bond II.

The Orpheum Series used hot hide-glue construction.

Tommy

 

[Br1ck]

Play guitar, like guitar, buy guitar. All you need to know. Insisting on a dovetail eliminates a lot of fine guitars.

 

[Bernie]

That's an interesting discussion I find, and It's been worthwhile reading your various views on the matter.

I doubt that metal pieces would transmit good vibrations the way wood can do though. On top of that I suspect that the pressure around the actual bolts will be good (and maybe even better), but it's not going to be even everywhere like it would with a well done hide-glued dovetail joint...I'd believe in the uniformity and continuity of vibrations spreading throughout the whole guitar. Seems to me that two pieces of wood made one can do better in that regard.
I had not thought that more power might come out with a glued neck (opposed to bolted-on) as Al suggested (it's an interesting point too I'll have to think of as well), but I still believe even after reading all your comments in the way good vibes spread out through my body when playing, giving me this joyful feel I mentioned (hide glue might explain why I quoted the Martin)...

I've been surprised to read that Huss & Dalton, Collings and Bourgeois use bolt-on necks, but those guitars are so rare here that I never tried one, then do not have much to get out of it, though I've been impressed by some guitars from them at times (that I heard on the internet of course)...It'd take the exact same guitar, made by the same people, using the same woods, glue and so forth to really know for sure...

 

[jwsamuel]

In my several trips to New Hartford, I never saw hide glue used, though I may have missed it; the glue of choice there seems to be Tite Bond II.

Most Martin guitars are made with Titebond as well. Only a few -- such as the Authentic series -- are made with hide glue.

 

[jwsamuel]

I doubt that metal pieces would transmit good vibrations the way wood can do though.

A bolt-on neck joint does not use metal to transmit vibrations. A blot-on neck joint is wood-to-wood with a bolt holding the two together, rather than glue.

but it's not going to be even everywhere like it would with a well done hide-glued dovetail joint

Well done being the operative word.

Jim

 

[mavuser]

the original Oxnardian M-20 satin 2016 sounds exactly like the Hoboken M-20s. i have done extensive in hand comparisons. the neck on the Oxnards are much fatter, but they sound exactly the same, and are fine guitars. I still standby only using 11's however, on any M-20 or F-20.

 

[davismanLV]

Just to add two other great and well-respected brands that use bolt on necks are Taylor and Breedlove.

 

[TXGuild00]

Not sure i will every buy a guitar with a bolt on neck...nothing to do with bolt on or dovetail, simply has to do with the guitars I buy don’t use them...standard Martin’s and Westerly Guilds... have a Canadian made that I bought about 12 years ago also no bolt on. It is very interesting that it has always been viewed as a negative thing...I know it was my excuse when Taylor became a major player, but I was already into Martin’s and guilds to I just looked the other way. Collings is one of the best as well as Taylor and for a traveling musician playing all over, there is no better system. But as I said earlier, I probably won’t ever own one. Not in the near future at least.

 

[jwsamuel]

I was justifying why I thought hide-glue set neck would be the hypothetical ideal, "hypothetical" being the operative term here.

The question is whether or not a dovetail joint held together with hide glue became the tradition because it is the ideal solution or because it was the only solution in the early days of lutherie.

 

[Bernie]

A bolt-on neck joint does not use metal to transmit vibrations. A blot-on neck joint is wood-to-wood with a bolt holding the two together, rather than glue.
(...)Jim

Not what I meant, not what I said (maybe I wasn't clear enough)...

the original Oxnardian M-20 satin 2016 sounds exactly like the Hoboken M-20s. i have done extensive in hand comparisons. the neck on the Oxnards are much fatter, but they sound exactly the same, and are fine guitars. I still standby only using 11's however, on any M-20 or F-20.

This is interesting ! Does it mean it took a much fatter neck to compensate for the loss ? (☺)
I find it strange though ; hard for me to believe that a Hoboken made Guild could sound exactly the same as a 2016 Oxnard made same model...But I trust your word.
Bernie

 

[bluesypicky]

Musicians, and guitarists in particular, form a caste that tend to easily transform their preconceived stereotypes into a fashionable snobisme, defining the "elite" status to which they persuade themselves belonging to, and this debate is a stark reminder of how true it remains.
I remember, from my years spent selling those things for a living, that the "set neck" was a selling argument for even an electric guitar, (where the importance of the resonance thingie gets even more arguable) because it implied a better craftsmanship as opposed to bolted necks.
While I do join the ranks of those who favor the ease of repair / affordability of bolted necks, I must say, however, that the point I favor about set necks is the playability: Bolted necks require a thicker heel for obvious sturdiness reason since a couple of holding bolts will be the only link between the neck and the guitar body, making it (as far as I'm concerned and from experience with both) less comfortable when your left hand - or right one for lefties - meets that junction around the 12th fret.
It is actually one of the reasons I love my Guild acoustics so much. The heel.

 

[tommym]

The Collings SJ that I played had a smaller / thinner neck heel than all my Guilds.

Tommy

 

[bobouz]

With the build quality we see today from well-known shops, I’d be comfortable with either system.

Didn’t used to be able to personally say that!

 

[bluesypicky]

The Collings SJ that I played had a smaller / thinner neck heel than all my Guilds.
Tommy

Then Collings must be doing something better than some, that I wasn't privy to (by lack of experience with the brand I must confess).
More power to them! (And to the bolted necks)

 

[twocorgis]

Then Collings must be doing something better than some, that I wasn't privy to (by lack of experience with the brand I must confess).
More power to them! (And to the bolted necks)

Great to see you here for a change old buddy! You need to play my Bourgeois Slope D-140. Guaranteed it will make you a bolt on neck convert, and it too has a relatively slim profile.

 

[kostask]

I guess everybody skipped over this line in my original post:

"Practically speaking, it will be impossible to hear the difference between a glued neck joint and a good bolt neck joint."