The Oxnard Guild’s have a bolt on neck joint?

[Rambozo96]

I got an email announcing the reopening of the Oxnard plant and saw a picture of what seemed to be a F40 with what appears to be some sort of bolt on neck joint. Nothing wrong with that of course as Taylor uses the bolt on neck and as did Martin on the Mexican made guitars just wondering if that’s what Oxnard uses on the Guilds. Is it also present in the Traditional series?

 

[SFIV1967]

Currently the M-20, M-25, M-40, D-20 and also the normal D-40 (satin finish) have that Mortise and Tenon bolt on neck.

The Traditional models like D-40, D-55, F-55,... have the traditional Dovetail neck joint.

The picture you posted above is a rare proof of the shape of the Mortise and Tenon joint.

Other pictures of the rim contruction were posted previously:

The picture on the right shows a metal plate in the mold holding and fixing the neck block before the two holes, later the holes are hidden behind the wooden plaque with the model number and serial number:

Here are others picture from Guild in Oxnard, but they have not published any pictures showing the neck shape of the Mortise and Tennon vs. the Dovetail neckjoint.

Ralf

 

[Bernie]

Is this purely Oxnard's way of building these guitars or does it date back to previous owners or building locations too ?
An other question would be, is it limited to the guitars you mentioned or is it that other models are made this way too ?
Thanks

 

[SFIV1967]

Is this purely Oxnard's way of building these guitars or does it date back to previous owners or building locations too ?
An other question would be, is it limited to the guitars you mentioned or is it that other models are made this way too ?
Thanks

Only the lower end guitars as mentioned above use it and all the traditional series guitars use dovetail.

I'm not aware that previous Guild factories used anything other than a dovetail joint on acoustic models, except the Contemporary series in Tacoma which used a patented neck joint that wasn't successful after all. Below are two pictures of a Tacoma made Contemporary series neck joint in case you have not seen yet. It and the related FMIC patents are discussed in many old threads here.

Ralf

 

[adorshki]

Only the lower end guitars as mentioned above use it and all the traditional series guitars use dovetail.

I'm not aware that previous Guild factories used anything other than a dovetail joint on acoustic models, except the Contemporary series in Tacoma which used a patented neck joint that wasn't successful after all. Below are two pictures of a Tacoma made Contemporary series neck joint in case you have not seen yet. It and the related FMIC patents are discussed in many old threads here.

Ralf

Didn't the GX series also use bolt-on since they were electric necks on an acoustic body?
Ah, here we go, Beesley confirms it:

Guild Guitars

books.google.com

But that's the only other instance I can think of, and those are pretty obscure due to very low production.

 

[GGJaguar]

Currently the M-20, M-25, M-40, D-20 and also the normal D-40 (satin finish) have that Mortise and Tenon bolt on neck.
The Traditional models like D-40, D-55, F-55,... have the traditional Dovetail neck joint.

Interesting, thanks for this info Ralf! I know there are some Martin fans that absolutely will not buy a Martin with the mortise and tenon neck joint. My D-15SM has the M&T neck and is almost 10 years old with no problems. So M&T isn't a worry for me.

 

[West R Lee]

West

 

[West R Lee]

I only post the above picture because some of us used to think bolt on necks were inferior for some reason.

West

 

[twocorgis]

I only post the above picture because some of us used to think bolt on necks were inferior for some reason.

West

Nothing wrong with bolt on necks Sure never detracted from the tone of my Bourgeois Slope D-140. And when it needed a neck reset, it was three days, and $175. Much better system IMO.

 

[Rambozo96]

Nothing wrong with bolt on necks Sure never detracted from the tone of my Bourgeois Slope D-140. And when it needed a neck reset, it was three days, and $175. Much better system IMO.

I’d probably get shot for saying this but I’d have to agree. What’s funny is Kay of all companies made a guitar with an adjustable neck angle. And I seem to remember Hofner had something similar. I can’t imagine the mechanisms doing any favors for the tone so I figure the way Bob Taylor did them is the way to go.

 

[davismanLV]

Makes neck resets a whole lot easier!! I'm a fan of bolt on necks.

 

[Rambozo96]

Makes neck resets a whole lot easier!! I'm a fan of bolt on necks.

I think more manufacturers should adopt it. I mean I can’t imagine the bolt on design being too expensive to incorporate. I think Seagull uses a bolt on set up. I just see many people having to retire old acoustics on the grounds that the neck angle shifted to where the guitar was no longer comfortable to play. Imagine the extended lifespan of an acoustic if most of them were bolt on. I mean I have an EKO 12 from 1967 that just needed a shim and the action was able to be set super low. Try getting 53 years out of a 12 string without having to have the neck reset on it. Granted the EKO uses a totally different style of bolt on and has a massive plywood neck block that I’m sure hurts the tone the concept of shimming the neck still applies. Also with a bolt on neck in the unfortunate event that a less than competent tech messed up when adjusting the neck angle it isn’t near a colossal conundrum as if such an error was to happen with a glue in neck.

 

[marius]

I think Seagull uses a bolt on set up.

I’m a fan of the Godin family of guitar brands but not a fan of their neck set approach. Their “Integrated Set Neck” is arguably a bolt on because the heel is bolted on but it also includes a tenon that is affixed with epoxy. They make a great guitar for the price but I’d never consider one as something I’d be able to pass on to the grand kids.

 

[Bernie]

Only the lower end guitars as mentioned above use it and all the traditional series guitars use dovetail.

I'm not aware that previous Guild factories used anything other than a dovetail joint on acoustic models, except the Contemporary series in Tacoma which used a patented neck joint that wasn't successful after all. Below are two pictures of a Tacoma made Contemporary series neck joint in case you have not seen yet. It and the related FMIC patents are discussed in many old threads here.

Ralf

Thanks very much Ralf, that's very interesting and useful to know.

I'm kind of relieved to read my (NH) F-30 does have a dovetail joint still !

Not that I think they are necessarily much better, but it seems like one gets overwhelmed by good vibrations coming from the guitar more fully than with bolt-on necks...It does give me a joyful physiacl feeling after some time playing I believe, and probably is a good reason why I enjoy my D-28 more than my Taylor in the long run (but keep them both ☺). As long as neck resets are not needed, evertyhing is cool...

 

[Stuball48]

Had two D40s - one was a 1969 with Hoboken label but made in RI, the other was a 1973 RI label that needed a neck reset when I bought it. Asked Chris Bozung to reset neck on 73 using a bolt on neck. Both were light weight D40s - with '69 being dovetail neck and '73 (now) with bolt on neck.
Restrung with D'Addario EJ16s. No scientific study or documented research but I tried to find a or hear a or feel differences in sound or ease of playing. They were as close to the same as my ears and fingers could determine during six months of playing both.

 

[jwsamuel]

Interesting, thanks for this info Ralf! I know there are some Martin fans that absolutely will not buy a Martin with the mortise and tenon neck joint. My D-15SM has the M&T neck and is almost 10 years old with no problems. So M&T isn't a worry for me.

I don't know if they still are but as of a couple of years ago, Martin's M&T necks were bolted and glued. The bolts were really there to hold the neck in place while the glue dried.

 

[adorshki]

I'm kind of relieved to read my (NH) F-30 does have a dovetail joint still !
Not that I think they are necessarily much better, but it seems like one gets overwhelmed by good vibrations coming from the guitar more fully than with bolt-on necks...

If one subscribes to the idea that the neck and headstock act as resonating elements that feedback into the top (via the fretboard) and thereby contribute to overall tone (as I do), then the glued-in dovetail is for sure a more efficient method of getting body vibrations into the top since the hide glue will act as a better transmission medium than the bolt-on method where there's no actual physical continuity between the joined elements.
Edit: I guess that might be debatable, I might even be wrong, but I think specifically hide glue would transmit vibration between glued surfaces more efficiently than bare wood surfaces in contact no matter how tightly clamped.
It occurs to me that even the clamping pressure itself of the bolt on method may influence the vibe transmission between body and neck.

I think more manufacturers should adopt it. I mean I can’t imagine the bolt on design being too expensive to incorporate.

I believe that although material costs might be little greater, it's actually cheaper from a labor-time standpoint which makes it net cheaper to produce.

Had two D40s - one was a 1969 with Hoboken label but made in RI, the other was a 1973 RI label that needed a neck reset when I bought it. Asked Chris Bozung to reset neck on 73 using a bolt on neck. Both were light weight D40s - with '69 being dovetail neck and '73 (now) with bolt on neck.
Restrung with D'Addario EJ16s. No scientific study or documented research but I tried to find a or hear a or feel differences in sound or ease of playing. They were as close to the same as my ears and fingers could determine during six months of playing both.

And in spite of my statement above I agree that for most people the difference may not even be "hearable" as you and Sandy point out.
But ever since I felt the neck of my D25 vibrating in my hand one day, I realized there was a whole other element of sound production involving the neck and even headstock mass.
'NOTHER Edit:
I'd actually be open-minded about buying a bolt-on neck guitar if it sounded good and had confidence in the maker (I'd trust Oxnard's methods), don't mean to sound like I'm a purist about set necks.
(Although I was for a while.)

And truthfully that whole ease/economy of re-setting a bolt-on has huge appeal to me.

 

[tommym]

All my Guilds have dovetail neck joints. All my Froggy Bottom guitars have bolt on necks. As long as it is a quality neck joint, I no longer have a preference of one over the other.

Tommy

 

[davismanLV]

If one subscribes to the idea that the neck and headstock act as resonating elements that feedback into the top (via the frteboard) and thereby contribute to overall tone (as I do), then the glued-in dovetail is for sure a more efficient method of getting body vibrations into the top since the hide glue will act as a better transmission medium than and method of bolting where there's no actual physical continuity between the joined elements.

I know that this is what you BELIEVE and you have that right, however I think a good bolt on neck with surfaces firmly attached and up against each other will do just as well. That's what I believe and I think people are coming around to this as time goes on. I mean, Collings (and so many others) are not going to sacrifice sound and tone by using a marginal neck joint. They just wouldn't do it. But that's just my belief. If you look at that Collings neck joint diagram that West posted, and picture it in place and screwed tightly together, I think it'll transfer vibrations just fine.

 

[twocorgis]

I know that this is what you BELIEVE and you have that right, however I think a good bolt on neck with surfaces firmly attached and up against each other will do just as well. That's what I believe and I think people are coming around to this as time goes on. I mean, Collings (and so many others) are not going to sacrifice sound and tone by using a marginal neck joint. They just wouldn't do it. But that's just my belief. If you look at that Collings neck joint diagram that West posted, and picture it in place and screwed tightly together, I think it'll transfer vibrations just fine.

I agree Tom. Dana Bourgeois could make guitars anyway that he likes, and chooses the bolt on neck because it "just made sense", and I agree.