Starfire Humbuckers/Brackets

[Wink]

Hey all,

Well I just bought a 66 Starfire (IV) from the U.S (live in NZ) and have a wee problem. Mission impossible accomplished getting hold of it, I now want to chuck some original humbuckers back in. It has some pretty old de armonds in it at the moment (im told, havent pulled them out completely apart to suss out how much 'whoever' had routed the centre block to accommodate them).

So Starfire's came out with 2 sized humbuckers during 60's and 70's a 'small' and 'large'? 66's are the small ones is that correct?

And, Ive seen a few 60's Starfire hb's for sale (forgot to bid on pair on e bay yesterday...gutted) but they all seem to be without brackets. Does anyone know if there is a gibson repro bracket or whatever I could use as a substitute? I think I tried to get hold of Guild/de'armond who are now Fender or whatever and from memory they didnt have any such parts regards pickups etc. I could be lying it was a while ago.

Oh and would anyone know off the top of their head what one of theses 66 hb's dimensions would be? Including and not including bracket would be sweet. I think there will have to be a packing job? in order to make them snug if I finally get a pair. It'll be good to know in advance.

Finally out of curiosity, who thinks it sacrilegious to consider refinishing? The finish Is pretty heavily checked (rugged/cool yes but pics of pristine IV's are just angelic esp with harp tail piece) and if packing needs to be done for hbs's it could have some of that packing material visible out of edges of brackets which wont be cool.

And if anyone happens to be considering selling some humbuckers....

Thanks a bunch

 

[Wink]

Hey all,

Well I just bought a 66 Starfire (IV) from the U.S (live in NZ) and have a wee problem. Mission impossible accomplished getting hold of it, I now want to chuck some original humbuckers back in. It has some pretty old de armonds in it at the moment (im told, havent pulled them out completely apart to suss out how much 'whoever' had routed the centre block to accommodate them).

So Starfire's came out with 2 sized humbuckers during 60's and 70's a 'small' and 'large'? 66's are the small ones is that correct?

And, Ive seen a few 60's Starfire hb's for sale (forgot to bid on pair on e bay yesterday...gutted) but they all seem to be without brackets. Does anyone know if there is a gibson repro bracket or whatever I could use as a substitute? I think I tried to get hold of Guild/de'armond who are now Fender or whatever and from memory they didnt have any such parts regards pickups etc. I could be lying it was a while ago.

Oh and would anyone know off the top of their head what one of theses 66 hb's dimensions would be? Including and not including bracket would be sweet. I think there will have to be a packing job? in order to make them snug if I finally get a pair. It'll be good to know in advance.

Finally out of curiosity, who thinks it sacrilegious to consider refinishing? The finish Is pretty heavily checked (rugged/cool yes but pics of pristine IV's are just angelic esp with harp tail piece) and if packing needs to be done for hbs's it could have some of that packing material visible out of edges of brackets which wont be cool.

And if anyone happens to be considering selling some humbuckers....

Thanks a bunch

 

[capnjuan]

Hi Wink and welcome to LTG; I can't help you with the bits and pieces of pickups but personally think re-finishing should be reserved for instruments that are in pretty bad condition. Hard to say without seeing a pic of yours. Regards, CJ

 

[capnjuan]

Hi Wink and welcome to LTG; I can't help you with the bits and pieces of pickups but personally think re-finishing should be reserved for instruments that are in pretty bad condition. Hard to say without seeing a pic of yours. Regards, CJ

 

[gilded]

Hi Wink,

Welcome to LTG!

First of all, pictures are worth providing to folks around here, that is, if you know how to post 'em on the internet! If you don't, but you have a digital camera and are willing to learn, somebody here can walk you through it.

Also, serial numbers help. A '66 Starfire IV should have a serial number in this range, EL277 to EL1167.

Starfire IV guitars were introduced in '63. The necks were 'set-into' the body at the 16th fret until approximately '67. After that, the necks joined the body at the 18th fret.

Most of the time, the early Starfires had the 'small', first generation Guild humbucker. They were in general use from '63 to sometime in 1970. The 'larger' Guild humbuckers were used from around August '70 on. At some point in time, a few SF IV guitars were issued with DeArmonds. I kind of thought that happened around 1970, but that's an extrapolation based on other model Guilds and not a 'hard fact'.

Since it's possible that your SF IV came with DeArmonds, you might want to study up on the details and share them here in the forum, before you absolutely commit to changing out your pickups.

Having said that, the type of DeArmond that Guild typically used (a DeArmond 200 model) is certainly capable of fitting in a '66 SF IV 'small' humbucker cut-out. The DeArmond 200 pickup is slightly narrower and a tad longer than a Guild 'mini-bucker', but, again, whoever changed your pickups out didn't absolutely have to route out the existing pickup cut-outs to make them fit. So, you may be in luck, but it's hard to say without looking at pictures!!!

I'll be glad to measure the dimensions of a small humbucker for you, with and without brackets. Personally, I wouldn't buy a small Guild humbucker without a bracket unless you are buying a spare pickup for a guitar that already has the bracket(s). Guild minibuckers are hard to find, especially with the brackets, especially in a pair.

I paid $300 the last time I bought a pair of minis with brackets (pickup surrounds). I know the last pair on eBay went for $135 or so, but again, if you don't have the right surrounds you will have a hard time finding them. On the other hand, DeArmond
200 pickups are worth a lot on the open market right now, too, so it may all be a wash.

On the refinishing issue, I agree with my good friend capnjuan, the Learned Gentleman from Florida. Buy hey, it's your guitar, so do what makes you happy. Refinishing doesn't help the value, though.

 

[gilded]

Hi Wink,

Welcome to LTG!

First of all, pictures are worth providing to folks around here, that is, if you know how to post 'em on the internet! If you don't, but you have a digital camera and are willing to learn, somebody here can walk you through it.

Also, serial numbers help. A '66 Starfire IV should have a serial number in this range, EL277 to EL1167.

Starfire IV guitars were introduced in '63. The necks were 'set-into' the body at the 16th fret until approximately '67. After that, the necks joined the body at the 18th fret.

Most of the time, the early Starfires had the 'small', first generation Guild humbucker. They were in general use from '63 to sometime in 1970. The 'larger' Guild humbuckers were used from around August '70 on. At some point in time, a few SF IV guitars were issued with DeArmonds. I kind of thought that happened around 1970, but that's an extrapolation based on other model Guilds and not a 'hard fact'.

Since it's possible that your SF IV came with DeArmonds, you might want to study up on the details and share them here in the forum, before you absolutely commit to changing out your pickups.

Having said that, the type of DeArmond that Guild typically used (a DeArmond 200 model) is certainly capable of fitting in a '66 SF IV 'small' humbucker cut-out. The DeArmond 200 pickup is slightly narrower and a tad longer than a Guild 'mini-bucker', but, again, whoever changed your pickups out didn't absolutely have to route out the existing pickup cut-outs to make them fit. So, you may be in luck, but it's hard to say without looking at pictures!!!

I'll be glad to measure the dimensions of a small humbucker for you, with and without brackets. Personally, I wouldn't buy a small Guild humbucker without a bracket unless you are buying a spare pickup for a guitar that already has the bracket(s). Guild minibuckers are hard to find, especially with the brackets, especially in a pair.

I paid $300 the last time I bought a pair of minis with brackets (pickup surrounds). I know the last pair on eBay went for $135 or so, but again, if you don't have the right surrounds you will have a hard time finding them. On the other hand, DeArmond
200 pickups are worth a lot on the open market right now, too, so it may all be a wash.

On the refinishing issue, I agree with my good friend capnjuan, the Learned Gentleman from Florida. Buy hey, it's your guitar, so do what makes you happy. Refinishing doesn't help the value, though.

 

[jp]

Welcome Wink!
Good to have another kiwi on the BB. Congrats on the SFIV. I would agree with my fellow LTGers above--each nick and bump tells a story worth saving--that is unless appearances reveal a horror story. As far as the PUs, gilded is spot on. The PU surrounds (brackets) the the small Guild HBs are very hard to come by and are quite special. They are specifically sized to the mini-HBs and contoured to the archtop of the guitar. If you don't mind the larger, later period Guild humbucker (HB-1), I think standard humbucker pickup surrounds may fit. These pop up more often.

P.S. I forgot to bid on those HBs as well, and they went for a very good price!

 

[jp]

Welcome Wink!
Good to have another kiwi on the BB. Congrats on the SFIV. I would agree with my fellow LTGers above--each nick and bump tells a story worth saving--that is unless appearances reveal a horror story. As far as the PUs, gilded is spot on. The PU surrounds (brackets) the the small Guild HBs are very hard to come by and are quite special. They are specifically sized to the mini-HBs and contoured to the archtop of the guitar. If you don't mind the larger, later period Guild humbucker (HB-1), I think standard humbucker pickup surrounds may fit. These pop up more often.

P.S. I forgot to bid on those HBs as well, and they went for a very good price!

 

[Chris Metcalfe]

Welcome Wink!
In reply to jp's point above, well, standard gibson-type mounting rings sort of fit! What I mean is that if you are prepared and able to shave off a couple of mm from all around the ring , they can fit, in a very snug kind of way. I had to do this to fit a couple of HB1s I bought - guild HB mounting rings, by themselves, are hard to find, for obvious reasons - so there was no real alternative. It also means drilling 2 new holes to fit one side of the pickup mounting bracket, and filling one hole with ebony dust/ epoxy mix, letting it dry for an hour and then carefully shaving the top off with a razor knife. Only a good idea if you like this kind of thing....
good luck!
Chris

 

[Chris Metcalfe]

Welcome Wink!
In reply to jp's point above, well, standard gibson-type mounting rings sort of fit! What I mean is that if you are prepared and able to shave off a couple of mm from all around the ring , they can fit, in a very snug kind of way. I had to do this to fit a couple of HB1s I bought - guild HB mounting rings, by themselves, are hard to find, for obvious reasons - so there was no real alternative. It also means drilling 2 new holes to fit one side of the pickup mounting bracket, and filling one hole with ebony dust/ epoxy mix, letting it dry for an hour and then carefully shaving the top off with a razor knife. Only a good idea if you like this kind of thing....
good luck!
Chris

 

[gilded]

Chris, it's good to know that Gibson-type rings can fit an HB1-type pickup in a pinch.

Just so the original poster doesn't get confused, though, you are talking about fitting a Gibson surround/bracket/mounting ring to the '70 and up Guild 'bigger' humbucker, right?

Just so it's CLEAR, the 'smaller' '63 to '70 humbucker that Wink is looking for won't work with a Gibson-surround!!

 

[gilded]

Chris, it's good to know that Gibson-type rings can fit an HB1-type pickup in a pinch.

Just so the original poster doesn't get confused, though, you are talking about fitting a Gibson surround/bracket/mounting ring to the '70 and up Guild 'bigger' humbucker, right?

Just so it's CLEAR, the 'smaller' '63 to '70 humbucker that Wink is looking for won't work with a Gibson-surround!!

 

[jp]

Thanks for clarifying, Chris. I recall reading somewhere that the Gibsons work with the larger HB-1s. Didn't know about the gentle tweaking.

Just so it's CLEAR, the 'smaller' '63 to '70 humbucker that Wink is looking for won't work with a Gibson-surround!!

I can vouch for that Harry. The earlier Guild mini-humbuckers absolutely DO NOT work with the standard Gibson pickup surrounds.

 

[jp]

Thanks for clarifying, Chris. I recall reading somewhere that the Gibsons work with the larger HB-1s. Didn't know about the gentle tweaking.

Just so it's CLEAR, the 'smaller' '63 to '70 humbucker that Wink is looking for won't work with a Gibson-surround!!

I can vouch for that Harry. The earlier Guild mini-humbuckers absolutely DO NOT work with the standard Gibson pickup surrounds.

 

[Wink]

Cheers guys,

Thanks for the welcome and all your suggestions/input etc. Well, sounds like if i want to get some small HB's I should wait till a pair with brackets come up eh?

gilded, if you wouldnt mind passing on those measurements sometime that'd be great. Ive got a photo here of the current pick ups in and out though didnt have anything that had measurements on it at hand to give scale.

So true about wear telling a story. But pristine is, well, just damn pretty also. Think I'll leave the refinishing till I can tell if replacing o.g HB's are gonna be a possibility. Because I'm guessing there will have to be some sort of packing out of the centre block which might leave the packing material visible from under the small HB brackets if you follow me?

I could'nt find any inscriptions on the pick ups that are currently installed. Does anyone know what they could be? Apparently the previous owner was told they were 'old DeArmonds'? I Dont think they're those 200 models as routing looks as if its taken place.

Ive got a harp tail piece coming also. I reckon theyre such a cool guild thing.

Forgive me if this image posting comes out all wrong, havent done this before.

Thanks.



URL=http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1019vx9.jpg]

[/URL]

 

[Wink]

Cheers guys,

Thanks for the welcome and all your suggestions/input etc. Well, sounds like if i want to get some small HB's I should wait till a pair with brackets come up eh?

gilded, if you wouldnt mind passing on those measurements sometime that'd be great. Ive got a photo here of the current pick ups in and out though didnt have anything that had measurements on it at hand to give scale.

So true about wear telling a story. But pristine is, well, just damn pretty also. Think I'll leave the refinishing till I can tell if replacing o.g HB's are gonna be a possibility. Because I'm guessing there will have to be some sort of packing out of the centre block which might leave the packing material visible from under the small HB brackets if you follow me?

I could'nt find any inscriptions on the pick ups that are currently installed. Does anyone know what they could be? Apparently the previous owner was told they were 'old DeArmonds'? I Dont think they're those 200 models as routing looks as if its taken place.

Ive got a harp tail piece coming also. I reckon theyre such a cool guild thing.

Forgive me if this image posting comes out all wrong, havent done this before.

Thanks.



URL=http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1019vx9.jpg]

[/URL]

 

[Wink]

Oh forgot to mention the serial number is 1508.

 

[Wink]

Oh forgot to mention the serial number is 1508.

 

[gilded]

Wink,

First of all, I'll be happy to measure my pickups for you. I was at the studio last night, but spaced it.
I'll try and do it today.

That serial number corresponds to 1967 as does the neck being set into the body at the 18th fret. I can't really tell from your pic that well about the neck set, but the position of the bridge (above the middle section of the guitar's f-holes) gives the necessary info.

Those pickups......hmmm..........man, I remember those pickups, I had some of those pickups, I kinda remember how they sound, but I don't recall who made them. Maybe, they are a Schaller pickup from the '70's? I don't think they are DeArmonds.

More later.......gilded

 

[gilded]

Wink,

First of all, I'll be happy to measure my pickups for you. I was at the studio last night, but spaced it.
I'll try and do it today.

That serial number corresponds to 1967 as does the neck being set into the body at the 18th fret. I can't really tell from your pic that well about the neck set, but the position of the bridge (above the middle section of the guitar's f-holes) gives the necessary info.

Those pickups......hmmm..........man, I remember those pickups, I had some of those pickups, I kinda remember how they sound, but I don't recall who made them. Maybe, they are a Schaller pickup from the '70's? I don't think they are DeArmonds.

More later.......gilded