Now I know why I have intonation problems!! Early Muller AdjustoMatic!!!!

[gilded]

Okay, I couldn't figure out why my bridge kept moving. I thought, 'Wow, these screw threads are loose in the threaded stanchions!'

So, I took off the strings and got ready to unscrew the bridge from the stanchions. Boy was I wrong! There is no threaded stanchion, just two metal cups that the threaded screws fit into very, very loosely!

What is the deal? Am I missing some parts? Did the Guild Gods shy away from this guitar when it was made? Is the Muller a cheap copy? I have to know, somebody please tell me how to fix this problem!

 

[Qvart]

Nope. That's how they were made. In '75 when they moved the tailpiece closer to the bridge and sunk the neck deeper into the body they used bridge posts that actually threaded into the guitar.

 

[chazmo]

Harry, are you playing with normal tension, tuned to pitch? I'm just wondering why the bridge would be moving around on you.

Maybe the bridge isn't high enough to create sufficient break angle to keep the thing anchored.

 

[gilded]

The guitar came with 9s on it. Normally, I play with 10s on a rock guitar,
but the neck is so small for me, I thought I'd stick with 9s. They are tuned to pitch.

I guess I'll just have to be careful.

 

[drc]

all of my S-100's with that first generation bridge have always had a little bit of play in them. I will add though that once the bridge was set with strings tuned up, you physically had to wiggle it on purpose to get it to move, but it did move.

 

[chazmo]

You could shim the posts and lock it in place better... It's interesting, and I'm just curious. If the thing really moves around on you, then I would say that's a design flaw! The posts should really fit snugly, and I'm surprised they don't (despite my earlier comment about tension holding it in place).

 

[gilded]

You could shim the posts and lock it in place better... It's interesting, and I'm just curious. If the thing really moves around on you, then I would say that's a design flaw! The posts should really fit snugly, and I'm surprised they don't (despite my earlier comment about tension holding it in place).

Chaz', Old Son, in truth, I'm surprised myself. That's why I threw the pic of the stanchion holes and the screws next to it, to see if I had a knockoff bridge or there was a set of shims that came with the guitar, etc. Without string pressure, the bridge screws literally flop around in the stanchion cups. With strings (and string pressure!) on the guitar, the bridge will stand up straight, but eventually fall forward, which in turn affects the intonation and serves to flatten out the angle of the arc of the strings.

I guess, if all of my parts are original, that you could charitably call it an 'early design' as opposed to a bad design. Guess I'll send the pic to Hans and see if the Wizard has any pointers!

Appreciate the help, fellas! It's good to know you are out there.

And, Qvart, I look forward to the day that I can read all of your carefully prepared list of S-100 info! I never really understood how good S-100s are, never really got the joke, until now. This guitar just whoops up on almost every Gibson SG I've ever owned or played. In fact, I would say every Gibson SG I've played, but surely I must have played a great SG in the last 40+ years of banging on strings.

 

[Default]

Try a little teflon tape, the kind you use on plumbing. That might be enough to snug it up enough to keep it from wobbling.

 

[bluesypicky]

Live and learn!
I had never ever noticed the slightest moving of the bridge while playing either my 73 or 74, so curiosity had me go to the 73 and pull it out of the case to check, and I was able to detect a tiny bit of play (I would say less than a millimeter) but I had to push real hard on it to get it to move. Like I said it has never moved an iota while playing, so I'll check the "No biggie" box on that one.
I have 10's on it, so maybe you'll stop feeling any play when you string it with 10's too Harry.....

 

[chazmo]

The stuff Steve's talking about is exactly what I was going to recommend for a shim. That stuff is great.

Good luck, Harry, and thanks for explaining the situation. Definitely if the bridge is moving you have to do something about it (design flaw or not)

 

[gilded]

Yeah, teflon tape is what's good for sloppy threads, but this thing is just loose! I'll figure it out, though. This too shall pass.

 

[Qvart]

The bridge on my '73 stays in place with .10's. I can make the bridge move, but normal playing doesn't cause it to move at all. Don't know what's up with yours so I guess maybe you can try wrapping something around the posts. Good luck!

Oh yeah...speaking of intonation: wait till you have to move the saddles and some of them won't move far enough to get the intonation right. That's fun!

 

[gilded]

Well, I changed to a new set of D'Addario Nines (.09) today and put a little teflon tape on the bridge screw shafts, to boot. The bad part was the result was much the same. The bridge leaned over and the intonation was off. I'm gonna see if my repairman can come up with something that will make it play in tune better.

The good part? At rehearsal, I really liked the way pickups sounded through my Princeton Reverb. The sounds on both pickups are very different, but both worked well with our song selection.

I was also playing a borrowed 2000 PRS CE 24, with the old style PRS humbuckers. The Guild was easier to use on shuffle rhythm variations on Surfin' USA and quick little lead blips on some other songs. I had to work to get an edge with the PRS's humbuckers (that means I had to hit the string slightly harder with a pick to get the edge), so I was rooting for the S-100 until the intonation on the B and G strings stunk up some chord work!

It seems like it is a lot easier to bond with the S-100 than the PRS. The PRS had a lot of features that were helpful, like the coil tap on the volume pot and the phase tap on the tone pot (okay, perhaps the answer to an unasked question), along with killer tremolo, but somehow it didn't add up to the visceral connection that I have with the Guild. You know what else the Guild sounded good on? We play the old Hoagy Carmichael song, Stardust. The S-100 sounds good playing the Melody!!!

Finally, I don't feel like I was getting all of the sustain that I could have with a better bridge-to-body-connection, but maybe the lack of connection is why I like the things about the guitar that I do like Gotta go talk to the Luthier, for sure!

Qvart, a thought, what is the bridge like on the Korean S-100s?

 

[Qvart]

Qvart, a thought, what is the bridge like on the Korean S-100s?

It's a TOM-style bridge (like they used on the '90's reissues). Intonation was pretty good right out of the box so I haven't messed with it at all. Just tuned it up and played.


Korean:

1996:

You might consider a post-'75 S-100: the neck was sunk deeper, steeper neck angle, tailpiece moved closer to the bridge, bridge posts were threaded. Same pickups and sound but more string tension and no leaning bridge. Check this thread.

 

[gilded]

Dropped the '71 off with my Repirman

Stopped by Mark's today and dropped the '71 S-100 off. He thinks he can find some brass shim stock that will snug up the screw/stanchion problem. Qvart, I told him what you said about Muller intonation issues, that being,

"...wait till you have to move the saddles and some of them won't move far enough to get the intonation right. That's fun!"

He said he understood and would try and dial in the intonation first.

On the finish, Mark agrees with Hans that it's a factory finish, just very thin. If Mark and Hans are right, I think we might get a different category for the finish. Again, Natural Satin comes to mind, but hey, you are keeping the list and whatever you say is okay by me!

 

[Zelja]

I have a similar issue on my "72. I may try to use some adhesive copper conductive tape on the posts to make a snugger fit. The other option may be to set the bridge height & then put some appropriate thickness washers under the bridge to stop the lean.

 

[gilded]

Zelja,

I got my guitar back from the luthier. He found some thin brass shim-stock, wrapped them around the bridge bolts, greased them and pushed them into place in the inserts with a resounding click!! I'll see if I can get a thickness measurement for you.

The bridge does not move at all, now. The intonation is much better. Having said that, two of the six strings are touching the back edge of the bridge and I may just cut some slots into the back of the bridge so the strings can resonate freely between bridge saddle and tailpiece block.

Hans has suggested that the inserts may be in the wrong place, at least as far as letting the saddles sit far enough back in the bridge saddle channel to allow the strings to ring freely. I've sent him some pics of the bridge/saddle/string relationship and we'll see what he has to say.

 

[Qvart]

The bridge does not move at all, now. The intonation is much better. Having said that, two of the six strings are touching the back edge of the bridge and I may just cut some slots into the back of the bridge so the strings can resonate freely between bridge saddle and tailpiece block.

That was fixed with the post-'75 bridge too (and was necessary because of the steeper string angle from the closer tailpiece position):

Hans has suggested that the inserts may be in the wrong place, at least as far as letting the saddles sit far enough back in the bridge saddle channel to allow the strings to ring freely. I've sent him some pics of the bridge/saddle/string relationship and we'll see what he has to say.

 

[gilded]

qvart, here are some pics!

Side view of bridge. In this particular pic, the bridge looks a little out of line with the plane of the pickup. In the real, 3D world the bridge is exactly where it needs to be to allow the arc of the bridge to line up perfectly with the arc of the fingerboard!



Qvart, when you look at the next two pics, I think that you will see that the 1st and 4th string saddles are the farthest away from the back edge of the bridge. As it happens, these are the strings that are touching the back edge of the bridge. If those two saddles were closer to the back edge of the bridge, the change in location vis a vis the height of the rear bridge edge, would allow the string to 'clear' the rear back edge and vibrate 100% freely.

I think this is Han's point when he 'suggested that the inserts may be in the wrong place, at least as far as letting the saddles sit far enough back in the bridge saddle channel to allow the strings to ring freely'.

In other words, I believe that Hans is saying one possible fix would be to re-position the Stud Inserts in the body slightly forward of their current position [doweling the Insert holes and re-drilling the new holes slightly closer to the neck].

Before, I do anything to either bridge or Stud Insert location, I'm going to try a set of 10s on the guitar and see what the intonation points are with a heavier set of strings!

 

[Zelja]

I got my guitar back from the luthier. He found some thin brass shim-stock, wrapped them around the bridge bolts, greased them and pushed them into place in the inserts with a resounding click!! I'll see if I can get a thickness measurement for you.

Well I wasn't sure what "brass shim-stock" was but it seems it just some thin brass plates on a roll (expensive over here if you buy a whole roll). I assume you can still take the the posts out as well? I might still try the copper tape trick as I have plenty of that - seemed to work for my Jazzmaster bridge posts as well.
Cheers, Z.