West R Lee
Venerated Member
Chazmo said:
And don't you just hate it when they call you sir? Well, sometimes :twisted: .
West
Not a good investment regardless
- Thread starter Curlington
- Start date
And don't you just hate it when they call you sir? Well, sometimes :twisted: .
West
Barring a certain guitar becoming associated with a famous rock star or something I think the best anyone can hope for with a new or newish guitar is that it retains its value through the years.
Like some of my fellow geezers, the only guitars that I have owned that turned out to be really good investments were those I bought used back in the 1960s. I did not buy them as an investment. I just could not afford new guitars. But somewhere through the years they magically transformed from used guitars to vintage guitars. Who would have thunk it.
Problem is to be an investment the sucker has to remain in as pristine a condition as possible. Not sure about the rest of you but I am not sure I could buy a guitar and just stash it away. And even if you fought the urge to play the heck out of it, imagine the chump you would feel like when 30 years down the road it is still worth half of what you paid for it.
On the other side of the coin, I still have some fairly rare guitars around like a 1942 Banner Gibson J-50 (these natural top J-45s were only made for one month that year). But because they show every mile put on them and have some non-original parts they will never bring anything close to big money. But at least they will always have a value and, if nothing else, are great trade bait should I ever decide to part with them.
Like some of my fellow geezers, the only guitars that I have owned that turned out to be really good investments were those I bought used back in the 1960s. I did not buy them as an investment. I just could not afford new guitars. But somewhere through the years they magically transformed from used guitars to vintage guitars. Who would have thunk it.
Problem is to be an investment the sucker has to remain in as pristine a condition as possible. Not sure about the rest of you but I am not sure I could buy a guitar and just stash it away. And even if you fought the urge to play the heck out of it, imagine the chump you would feel like when 30 years down the road it is still worth half of what you paid for it.
On the other side of the coin, I still have some fairly rare guitars around like a 1942 Banner Gibson J-50 (these natural top J-45s were only made for one month that year). But because they show every mile put on them and have some non-original parts they will never bring anything close to big money. But at least they will always have a value and, if nothing else, are great trade bait should I ever decide to part with them.
theflyingturtle
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2010
- Messages
- 131
- Reaction score
- 0
All this about talk about geezerdom like it's a bad thing. What's wrong with a little nap in the afternoon!? As far as investments and guitars go it reminds me of some advice I got when I bought my house. It was suggested to me that I shouldn't concern myself with the rising and dropping value of the house since it was a long term investment that would not liquidated for decades. In the meantime I get the value of having a home to live in and I am not paying rent. In a similiar manner I have paid money for guitars and get to enjoy them. Heck it is one of the most enjoyable parts of my day when I can sit down with one of my guitars. When I think of all the hours of joy I get from my guitars compared to the cost of buying them it seems like a screaming deal to me.
As for the Westerly Guilds being more valued and the Corona guitars being under-rated sleepers... I would have to agree and I think it will always be this way. However, I if I was a betting man I would have to say that given more time to age I believe that the Corona guitars will come into their own. Of course the Westerlys will have moved on and remain above the Coronas but I really feel that their time will come. I think that the days of a Westerly being a great value will diminish and the Coronas will take their place as the guitars that are under valued.
As for the Westerly Guilds being more valued and the Corona guitars being under-rated sleepers... I would have to agree and I think it will always be this way. However, I if I was a betting man I would have to say that given more time to age I believe that the Corona guitars will come into their own. Of course the Westerlys will have moved on and remain above the Coronas but I really feel that their time will come. I think that the days of a Westerly being a great value will diminish and the Coronas will take their place as the guitars that are under valued.
rampside
Senior Member
After reading through this thread, I couldn't help but think about the comparison between buying Guild guitars and home computers. If I had purchased a Guild of equal value every time I purchased a home computer, well, I'd have one kick A$$ collection of Guild goodness and I would think, quite valuable. What's to show for all those wonderful expensive machines that we all just have to have? I had to pay someone to dispose of them to boot. I go back a long way to the first pc's and what you had to pay for them only to be obsolete by the time you were comfortable using it. Things have improved, but not much. :?
So anyway, I don't care how you look at it, buying a guitar IS a good investment. :wink:
So anyway, I don't care how you look at it, buying a guitar IS a good investment. :wink:
mutantmoose
Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2012
- Messages
- 138
- Reaction score
- 0
It occurs to me that the problem is not buying, it's selling too dang low. If I only had my '65 Polara in original custom white finish - but I sold it. 12 years ago. For $200.
It really pains me to admit that.
It really pains me to admit that.
Yoko Oh No
Member
it's odd that for the lay folk to realize a profit on a guitar, the instrument most usually needs to stay in mint ++ condition and age gracefully
however, put a piece of crap in a recognizable name's hand and it most likely has perceived value
did anyone read about keith's CUSTOM secret strings that Ernie Ball makes for him?
however, put a piece of crap in a recognizable name's hand and it most likely has perceived value
did anyone read about keith's CUSTOM secret strings that Ernie Ball makes for him?
hojo199
Member
I think about it (and have always talked about it) this way: I can have 500.00 sitting in the bank, or I can have a D25. I can have a grand sitting in the bank, or I can have a D50. I have chosen to have assets in the form of wonderful musical instruments rather than money earning next to nothing in the bank. Will those guitars "accrue interest?" Maybe. Maybe not. But they will hold their value. And I can sell them and get cash whenever I need to. If there is a loss, it isn't much -- certainly not as much as a loss as a 401k when those things take a dump....
bluesypicky
Enlightened Member
The only time I refer to a guitar purchase as a "good investment", is to help my wife swallow the pill of yet another guitar.... :shock:
strummer
Member
Realize I'm kinda veering off here but w/regards to the "what's it worth?" angle of a vintage instrument or any old item,I always feel that if it's paid for and not costing you regular $$$ to maintain then keeping it is the best option.Some items(Guild accoustics,Honda motorcycles)have a lower resale value but their performance value is very high.Additionally,that guitar you got when you were a kid has seen all or most of your life experience go by and retains a sentimental value(for some)that can't be put into words.I have an old MIJ acoustic that's worth zilch in dollars and cents but has been in my hands while I mourned the death of two parents,raised my kids,watched the world change centuries,etc.,etc.In addition to being a reliable songwriting axe,it's also become as much a friend as a material object can.I own several more valuable instruments but the Terada in many ways is my favorite.Having said that ,I gotta cop to the fact that she hasn't been played in a long time but will get her out this weekend.The Guilds are simply too nice not to play.
"Guilds are too nice not to play" - my sentiments exactly!!
walrus
walrus
West R Lee
Venerated Member
Well I'll tell ya. I see "investment" a different way. I assume implied by the word "investment" here the OP means monetary gain. But investment means much more to me. It means to purchase something that you benefit from or enjoy. Having said that, I bought a bunch of (Westerly) Guilds through the years, and sold a few, and I've never lost money on one, never made any either really, but I've always enjoyed them....all of them. To me, that's an investment.
West
West
fronobulax
Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
- Joined
- May 3, 2007
- Messages
- 24,806
- Reaction score
- 8,933
- Location
- Central Virginia, USA
- Guild Total
- 5
We need a better word. Some folks steadfastly insist that "investment" be restricted to using money to make money. But there is more to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (oops - was that political?) than making money. And other folks consider using money towards those ends to be an investment as well. Is buying a guitar a good thing to do with your money? Yes. Is buying a guitar the best use of your money? Depends on circumstances but if the basic needs of food, clothing and shelter are met then there is a strong case for Yes. Is buying a guitar a good way to make more money? Almost certainly No although there is always the story of the kid who never played the guitar his/her folks bough for him and has not retired and is living on the proceeds.
Now let me ask you this - if you have money and need to make more money who should you ask for advice? Your banker or your guitar playing buddy? :mrgreen:
Now let me ask you this - if you have money and need to make more money who should you ask for advice? Your banker or your guitar playing buddy? :mrgreen:
killdeer43
Reverential Member
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2008
- Messages
- 21,848
- Reaction score
- 113
My guitar-playing buddies and I never talk about money....we play our guitars and sing, and enjoy each other's company. We might even enjoy a sip or two of liquid refreshment.fronobulax said:
Can't imagine why we'd ruin our time together and talk about money.
Just sayin',
Joe
West R Lee
Venerated Member
fronobulax said:
I'll give you two thumbs up on that post Fro. Oh, and heavy on the word....."pursuit". :lol:
West
mutantmoose
Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2012
- Messages
- 138
- Reaction score
- 0
We could also approach this with a cost/benefit ratio. We can assume that a guitar will cost a certain amount of money, just as stocks do. We can assume that just because two guitars or stocks cost the same amount of money, they may actually be of dramatically different quality. We may also assume that there are situations where one type of guitar or stock is worthwhile to one person and worthless to another, with the opposite true of other guitars or stocks.
Moreover, we could assume that some guitars and stocks are priced at very low levels due to nothing more than market perception, and that these are real steals for people who are willing to put in the time and energy to do their research. Likewise, there are guitars and stocks that are priced at ridiculous levels due to market perceptions, and these can really burn people who expect a lot more from their investment. And, we can also assume that just because a bunch of guitars are the same model, or a bunch of stocks are in the same category or business, that doesn't mean that they play equally well or sound equally good, that is, their returns will vary.
A major disservice may be done by saying that "All guitars of brand and model "x" are really great", just as doing the same with stocks is a poor idea.
We may love Guilds, and have excellent Guild guitars, but that certainly does not mean that they are all good. There are bound to be a few clunkers out there, perhaps many. There might be 20, 30, 40% crummy Guild guitars out there. (A recent article about TJ Thompson had him stating that 40% of Martin OM18s were not that great.) There are crappy MArtin D45s, crappy Gibson J200s (lots and lots of crappy J200s), and crappy Guilds.
The upshot of this long winded wall of words is that one must decide why they are buying a guitar, and then diligently search for that guitar. Looking for a bottleneck blues guitar? You probably don't want a Guild D40. Looking for a bluegrass guitar? Stay away from a Harmony Sovereign.
The hardest thing to realize in all this is the limits of guitars. There are guitars that are just lovely, wonderful instruments, but which cannot be used to perform certain kinds of music by certain kinds of people, no matter how hard they try. Diligence is the key to finding a guitar with the right sound, right neck, right frets, right action, right balance of strings, etc. It's too easy to buy some flashy expensive model and be disappointed, just like buying the most popular new stock is a way to simply lose money. (Facebook, anybody?)
My best guitar buy? A Hohner D1 Gruhn design, for $45. A wonderful, solid top guitar with a fantastic sound, nice size, and great neck. Its major issue was that it had the name "Hohner" on the headstock. If it had said "Gibson", it would have commanded $1,500 in a heartbeat. I have played the heck out of the guitar for 12 years, and it has always responded. I've expanded to other guitars, but the Hohner is still a killer.
Moreover, we could assume that some guitars and stocks are priced at very low levels due to nothing more than market perception, and that these are real steals for people who are willing to put in the time and energy to do their research. Likewise, there are guitars and stocks that are priced at ridiculous levels due to market perceptions, and these can really burn people who expect a lot more from their investment. And, we can also assume that just because a bunch of guitars are the same model, or a bunch of stocks are in the same category or business, that doesn't mean that they play equally well or sound equally good, that is, their returns will vary.
A major disservice may be done by saying that "All guitars of brand and model "x" are really great", just as doing the same with stocks is a poor idea.
We may love Guilds, and have excellent Guild guitars, but that certainly does not mean that they are all good. There are bound to be a few clunkers out there, perhaps many. There might be 20, 30, 40% crummy Guild guitars out there. (A recent article about TJ Thompson had him stating that 40% of Martin OM18s were not that great.) There are crappy MArtin D45s, crappy Gibson J200s (lots and lots of crappy J200s), and crappy Guilds.
The upshot of this long winded wall of words is that one must decide why they are buying a guitar, and then diligently search for that guitar. Looking for a bottleneck blues guitar? You probably don't want a Guild D40. Looking for a bluegrass guitar? Stay away from a Harmony Sovereign.
The hardest thing to realize in all this is the limits of guitars. There are guitars that are just lovely, wonderful instruments, but which cannot be used to perform certain kinds of music by certain kinds of people, no matter how hard they try. Diligence is the key to finding a guitar with the right sound, right neck, right frets, right action, right balance of strings, etc. It's too easy to buy some flashy expensive model and be disappointed, just like buying the most popular new stock is a way to simply lose money. (Facebook, anybody?)
My best guitar buy? A Hohner D1 Gruhn design, for $45. A wonderful, solid top guitar with a fantastic sound, nice size, and great neck. Its major issue was that it had the name "Hohner" on the headstock. If it had said "Gibson", it would have commanded $1,500 in a heartbeat. I have played the heck out of the guitar for 12 years, and it has always responded. I've expanded to other guitars, but the Hohner is still a killer.
Russell Letson
Member
Guitar-as-tool for a musician is less an investment than a cost of doing business or maybe a capital expenditure--I don't think many carpenters think of the cost of their tools as investments in the same way venture capitalists think about acquiring a company. Some collectors pay might buy with an eye toward eventual sale at a real, inflation-adjusted profit, and certainly dealers look at their stock that way. But I've hung around a range of collecting worlds (book, toy, guitar) for about 40 years, and the notion of "investment-grade" guitars is one that doesn't make financial sense.
And, as other posters have pointed out, Guild has never been seen as a force in that (mostly over-optimistic) guitar-as-investment world anyway. The Guild model with the strongest cachet is probably the Artist Award--and you can still find them for around $5000. My D-40, bought new in 1967, cost $250. The Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI Inflation Calculator says that's $1724.39 in 2012 dollars. If I had invested that $250 at 4.5%, the return would have been $1812.06. And I doubt that I could sell my much-played, fine-sounding, often-repaired D-40 for $1800 now. On the other hand, I couldn't play slack key on a pile of dollars. (And in my idiosyncratic opinion, Corona and Tacoma Guild flat-tops are much better instruments than post-1970 Westerlys anyway. [*ducks*])
Making money by turning over a guitar is a crapshoot--there will be any number of "I paid $X for my guitar and sold it for $Y a few years later and that's a profit of $Z!" but those are going to be outliers. Hell, fifteen years ago I bought a fine 1920 Martin 0-18 for a price that would let me at least double my money if I sold it today--but that guitar fell into my lap and remains the only deal of its kind and scale I've made in fifty years of guitar buying. If you're going to make money on desirable guitars, you'd better be George Gruhn--and work at it full time. And recognize that it's a retail business model and be prepared to keep the lights on via "turns" rather than coups.
And, as other posters have pointed out, Guild has never been seen as a force in that (mostly over-optimistic) guitar-as-investment world anyway. The Guild model with the strongest cachet is probably the Artist Award--and you can still find them for around $5000. My D-40, bought new in 1967, cost $250. The Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI Inflation Calculator says that's $1724.39 in 2012 dollars. If I had invested that $250 at 4.5%, the return would have been $1812.06. And I doubt that I could sell my much-played, fine-sounding, often-repaired D-40 for $1800 now. On the other hand, I couldn't play slack key on a pile of dollars. (And in my idiosyncratic opinion, Corona and Tacoma Guild flat-tops are much better instruments than post-1970 Westerlys anyway. [*ducks*])
Making money by turning over a guitar is a crapshoot--there will be any number of "I paid $X for my guitar and sold it for $Y a few years later and that's a profit of $Z!" but those are going to be outliers. Hell, fifteen years ago I bought a fine 1920 Martin 0-18 for a price that would let me at least double my money if I sold it today--but that guitar fell into my lap and remains the only deal of its kind and scale I've made in fifty years of guitar buying. If you're going to make money on desirable guitars, you'd better be George Gruhn--and work at it full time. And recognize that it's a retail business model and be prepared to keep the lights on via "turns" rather than coups.
West R Lee
Venerated Member
West
Some really good thoughts here.
My quick thought is no... we don't need a new word. We just need to be clear on a few things. The problem is that you guys are talking about a narrow and broad view of what an investment is in the same breath. E.g., some people talk about school (as I do with my kids) as an investment in their future. That's a rather broad view, and it also points out that so much of this depends on how long a term you're talking about. It sure as HELL isn't a good investment in terms of monetary returns in the short term.
I have always been of the view that buying the absolute best instrument that you can afford (or maybe even not afford) will make you take the instrument more seriously and will motivate you to become a better musician. I'm not talking about collecting here. My parents bought me a professional quality trumpet when I was 13 after I'd shown in four years that I was definitely committed... and that factor alone played a role in my continued ongoing activity in that space to-date. When I bought my own 12-string after working an entire summer in college to pay for it, that locked it in for me too.
Anyway, I realize I'm rambling, but clearly the narrow view of investment with a fairly short-term horizon is not applicable to buying Guild guitars.
My quick thought is no... we don't need a new word. We just need to be clear on a few things. The problem is that you guys are talking about a narrow and broad view of what an investment is in the same breath. E.g., some people talk about school (as I do with my kids) as an investment in their future. That's a rather broad view, and it also points out that so much of this depends on how long a term you're talking about. It sure as HELL isn't a good investment in terms of monetary returns in the short term.
I have always been of the view that buying the absolute best instrument that you can afford (or maybe even not afford) will make you take the instrument more seriously and will motivate you to become a better musician. I'm not talking about collecting here. My parents bought me a professional quality trumpet when I was 13 after I'd shown in four years that I was definitely committed... and that factor alone played a role in my continued ongoing activity in that space to-date. When I bought my own 12-string after working an entire summer in college to pay for it, that locked it in for me too.
Anyway, I realize I'm rambling, but clearly the narrow view of investment with a fairly short-term horizon is not applicable to buying Guild guitars.
hojo199
Member
West R Lee said:
My experience exactly. I have never lost $$ on Westerly Guilds I had decided to sell over the years. I even made a few dollars on a couple, but was still able to sell them at a price that made the buyer happy. These guitars are just full 'o good vibes on so many levels ... for real!