NGD: 1966 Guild Starfire III

[jp]

I agree with gilded. If you really are looking at this as a Starfire as keeper for a number of years, I think it's totally worth it to do the neck reset. A competent luthier will pull it off with minimal consequences. I actually had this done to my Club Bass, which as you may know, is a model notorious for requiring neck resets. I will never ever part with this bass ever.

Over the years, I've whittled down my herd to only a select few guitars and basses -- all of which are not listed in my siggy -- and which sadly actually doesn't include the Starfire III anymore, since my T-100DP fits all my needs for certain playing territory. I'll pay any reasonable repair costs to keep these axes playing fine! roud:

 

[Jupiter]

I've got a lot of sentimental value attached to the guitar, so it would be worth making it right again. I would prefer keeping it a Bigsby guitar if possible, but already planned to buy a TruArc or Compton for it at some point.

 

[gilded]

I agree with gilded, too. You know, he's one heckuva guy!! And I say that with no self-interest, either!

Hey, this is not exactly critical news, but I was looking at your pics and I would get that bridge pickup tweaked to line up correctly with the strings. As it sits, the bridge most edge of the pickup up is a lot closer to the stings than it should be. I believe that your pickup will sound better if it is parallel to the plane of the strings.

If I were gonna keep the Bigsby, I'd get a new spring for it, too. I think you can get them from Elderly. Cheap. They'll boing better!

 

[Jupiter]

Funny you should mention it, I was thinking the same thing last night as I was putting it away! I lowered it a bit when the bridge came down, but I'll bring it down more.

 

[kakerlak]

I forget what these are (which is dumb, b/c I had one in the house a week ago), but if that tailpiece is a B6 equivalent, you might buy a little more break angle by swapping it for a B3. That kind of depends on how much arch there is to the top.

 

[Guildadelphia]

One big question: is it worth it to invest $$$$ into band-aid fixes that still may leave you less than satisfied or do you go "all in" and get the reset and possibly a refret too? Just an aside, you can get new Bigsby bridges that are intonated for an "unwound G".

 

[Jupiter]

One big question: is it worth it to invest $$$$ into band-aid fixes that still may leave you less than satisfied or do you go "all in" and get the reset and possibly a refret too? Just an aside, you can get new Bigsby bridges that are intonated for an "unwound G".

I agree. I plan to keep it and make sure the guitar is properly set up for the next 50 years. I want to keep the Guildsby, refret it, and reset the neck angle. Yes, it will be expensive, but I'll be happier for it every time I hold it in my hands.

 

[gilded]

.... Just an aside, you can get new Bigsby bridges that are intonated for an "unwound G".

You certainly can get one, but they won't fit the bridge post spacing of Jupiter's original bridge base. So, you have to find a base that matches...

 

[Greenstone]

I wonder if anyone has tried this: Remove threaded wheels and replace with short stack of thin washers, built up to the height that matches the action you desire. Probably super glue the washers together so they do not move, or find a single washer of the right thickness. The bridge is bottomed out anyway, so the bridge resting on washer(s) would approximate the wheels anyway. Won't solve the break angle issue, but it may get the action down. Or, get a replacement set of threaded wheels and have them ground down thinner.

 

[Default]

If you don't use something to prevent the bridge from sliding, it's going to chip the finish down to the bare wood. Not enough downward pressure to keep the bridge from skating up and down, like mine.

 

[gilded]

I wonder if anyone has tried this: Remove threaded wheels and replace with short stack of thin washers, built up to the height that matches the action you desire. Probably super glue the washers together so they do not move, or find a single washer of the right thickness. The bridge is bottomed out anyway, so the bridge resting on washer(s) would approximate the wheels anyway. Won't solve the break angle issue, but it may get the action down. Or, get a replacement set of threaded wheels and have them ground down thinner.

I've seen people take off the wheels before, usually on flat bottomed tune-o-matic type bridge and not angle-bottomed Bigsby bridges. I guess I never tried it on a Bigsby equipped guitar, possibly because by the time the wheels are off, the guitar is in pretty desperate shape.

As well, every time you get the action lower, you get even less break-over angle, so it compounds the original problem.

There is a relationship between the neck angle, bridge height and tailpiece string height. There are variables, but it seems like there is a preferred set of angles and geometry that makes it all work well together...maybe.

If you change the neck angle (re-set) enough, the bridge height has to go upwards and it wipes out the problem.

If you lower the height that the strings come out of (off of) the tailpiece, it wipes out the down-pressure problem. For example, the Harp tailpiece has a lower string height than a Bigsby tailpiece, so if you change them out, you will have a better break-over angle and that will cure the down-force issue....

....but it won't change the bridge height on Jupiter's guitar, because his bridge is already bottomed out. If you get a new, lower bridge base and top, and the tailpiece string height is low enough, then you can get the action down where you want it and you also have decent down force because you changed the break over angle. Only one problem left- no more Bigsby!

So we're back to a neck re-set, aren't we?

 

[Guildadelphia]

Glad to hear you are moving toward getting the neck re-set and a refret. I think if it is all done well you're going to have an amazing guitar on your hands. The fact that the guitar hasn't been "messed with" and is original will actually make the process a bit easier.

 

[Jupiter]

Just an update: I've got an appointment Thursday to have the guitar looked at more seriously, but I have no doubt a reset is in order, and I will have it refretted at the same time. Just offhand, does anyone know what the standard fret size was during this era? I'm used to Fender guitars, with 'vintage size' frets on my '66 Jazzmaster, and jumbos on my Tele. I like both, so I don't know which would be better for a fretboard with such a flat radius.

 

[Guildadelphia]

Have no idea what the original fret size was. I'm sure Hans or Walter know. IMO, go with what you personally find most comfortable. I prefer medium jumbo myself. The truth is, based on the age and wear on the guitar, the present fret board radius is probably flatter now that it was out of the factory. Your luthier should adjust the fretboard radius to your personal preference or vintage specs as part of the re-fretting process ( he/she should go over the fretboard with a radiused sanding block after removing the original frets to level and radius the board). Most important, make sure the work is done by someone you trust to do a great job....it's a big (but worthwhile) investment.

 

[Jupiter]

Have no idea what the original fret size was. I'm sure Hans or Walter know. IMO, go with what you personally find most comfortable. I prefer medium jumbo myself. The truth is, based on the age and wear on the guitar, the present fret board radius is probably flatter now that it was out of the factory. Your luthier should adjust the fretboard radius to your personal preference or vintage specs as part of the re-fretting process ( he/she should go over the fretboard with a radiused sanding block after removing the original frets to level and radius the board). Most important, make sure the work is done by someone you trust to do a great job....it's a big (but worthwhile) investment.

Good point. The guy I'm going to has refretted three vintage guitars for me (two with binding) and reset the neck on my old ES125, so I'm very comfortable with his work.

 

[gilded]

Walter would know the radius and Hans would probably know, too. Make sure whatever radius you go back with will go with the radius of your bridge top. Remember, when you get a tru-arc or a Compton, you can probably order the radius you want (at an extra charge), but in the meantime you'll be using what ever you have. The more modern Bigsby bridge tops will have a flatter radius than the old bridge you have, etc., plus you'll need a bridge base with a bridge post spacing that will work with your bridge-top of choice!

Lots to think about! Good luck.

 

[Jupiter]

I assumed, maybe incorrectly, these had a 12" radius?

 

[jp]

I actually think Guilds, like old Gretsches, are 9.45" or 9.5." Here are a couple of easy ways to check yourself. Now I'm curious about my Guilds, and I have to check too. :smile:

Stew Mac tool for making some paper gauges

PickGuardian print out neck gauges

 

[kakerlak]

I actually think Guilds, like old Gretsches, are 9.45" or 9.5." Here are a couple of easy ways to check yourself. Now I'm curious about my Guilds, and I have to check too. :smile:

Stew Mac tool for making some paper gauges

PickGuardian print out neck gauges

Just anecdotally speaking, I think the '50s-early '60s Guilds tend to be rounder than the later '60s-modern ones. I know my '74 SF6 and '94 X-700 are both pretty flat (though I've never measured), however, the '61 CE-100 I secured for guildman63 felt rounder (I'd guess somewhere sub-10"). I've felt some '70s Guilds I'd swear were oval in profile -- flat in the middle with some round-over towards the edge from about the 2nd-outermost strings outwards, but that's just impression, too, not measured.

 

[Jupiter]

I took it to CB Hill who is local. He thinks a neck reset isn't necessary, but a good refret, new nut, and proper setup should be all it needs. I also ordered a stainless Compton with the tone chamber that is heading over CB's way for install. He reckons a new rosewood base will be in order that he'll custom make. Verrry exciting!