NGD: 1966 Guild Starfire III

[Jupiter]

Hi everyone!

I'm basically a new member here, although I've lurked for some time.

I've always wanted a Starfire since I played my grandfather's as a kid, and I finally got my hands on one. I originally wanted an early '60s SFIII with Dynasonics, but came across a '66 with the mini-HBs and I'm really happy with it. The pickups much brighter than I expected and have a nice jangly tone, somewhere between a Gretsch and a Gibson, I suppose. It's in great shape for its age, showing some honest wear as any loved instrument should. The binding has yellowed nicely and has no shrinkage, save on spot on the back.

The action was a little high and the bridge was bottomed out, which concerned me a bit. A few turns of the truss rod flattened the fretboard nicely and the action came down to a very comfortable height, but it starts getting higher after the 12th fret. It isn't terrible; definitely playable for the time being, but I suspect it may need a neck reset (and possible refret) in the near future. There is no visible evidence of the neck joint being a problem, but something isn't right. I thought about grinding down the bottom of the bridge to get it lower, but the break angle from the Guildsby is already not exactly ideal. I suppose I could try using lighter gauge strings and see if it doesn't pull on the neck so much?

The tuners are okay, not great, but okay. I can live with them.

All in all I'm really excited about the guitar and plan to keep it for a very, very long time. Hopefully these issues are relatively easy to fix and I can relax and simply enjoy it. Any words of advice you guys might have would be really appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[naveed211]

Nice score, man. I was surprised how bright and jangly the pickups on my Starfire were when I got it, but they're awesome pickups. Looks like yours just needs a good once-over by a good tech and you'll be set. Enjoy it.

 

[mavuser]

Nice!

 

[geoguy]

Very cool . . . your grandpa would be proud, I'm sure!

Love the crazed texture of that aged lacquer, too.

 

[walrus]

A beauty!

walrus

 

[Jupiter]

Thanks, guys! I'm taking it to my luthier today to have it looked over. I spoke to him on the phone last night and he seems to think the neck doesn't need a reset, given it shows no signs of being loose. Obviously he won't know until he actually sees it, but hopefully it just needs a good once over to get it up and running properly.

 

[jcwu]

Love the crazed texture of that aged lacquer, too.

I love these old wrinkly finishes on well-aged guitars. Reminds me of my grandma. Boy do I miss her.

 

[Jupiter]

Just got back from the luthier and he gave it a clean bill of health. It may need a refret soon, but it's good, otherwise. I may try tuning down to see if the relieved tension helps lower the action a bit. I'm hoping I might be able to raise the bridge and get a better break angle for the Guildsby. Maybe this is one of those guitars where the neck wants less tension? I know my '65 Hofner Club bass doesn't play well with thicker strings due to the size of the neck.

 

[Guildadelphia]

It's really starting to look like a neck reset and a refret are what you need to get to vintage Guild nirvana. Tuning down a half step will get the action down a hair, but it will have more effect on string tension. Less string tension (especially on a 24 3/4" scale neck) might not be good if you are already having break angle issues over the bridge by lessening the downward string pressure on the bridge. A reset and refret surely would not be cheap but if done well will make that guitar a great player and sound even better.

 

[Jupiter]

I took some more pics to show the neck joint, break angle, and action on the bass side.

 

[xilef regnu]

So on later Guildsbys an additional bar was added to improve the break angle?

 

[jp]

Just got back from the luthier and he gave it a clean bill of health. It may need a refret soon, but it's good, otherwise. I may try tuning down to see if the relieved tension helps lower the action a bit. I'm hoping I might be able to raise the bridge and get a better break angle for the Guildsby. Maybe this is one of those guitars where the neck wants less tension?

The neck angle on my '65 Starfire looked a lot like yours when I got it, and it was arguably more worked in. I did have mine refretted with taller wire, which definitely help "close the gap" so to speak with the action. The neck on mine definitely didn't want more tension.

I know my '65 Hofner Club bass doesn't play well with thicker strings due to the size of the neck.

I also have a '64-'65 Club Bass, and it hates thick strings!

 

[Jupiter]

So on later Guildsbys an additional bar was added to improve the break angle?

I've inly ever seen the B7 on the SF VI, V, and VI. That said, it would definitely fix the break angle issue. I much prefer the look and feel of the original trem though.

 

[Guildadelphia]

From the pictures it sure looks like you have the bare minimal break angle over the bridge to avoid the strings popping out. Putting a B-7 with the tension bar would fix the break angle but it's not going to do anything to remedy the issue you appear to be having with the action higher up the neck. Plus, with a B-7 you will need to drill holes in the top of the guitar. Ok....this is something I personally wouldn't do with a vintage guitar but here goes: If you opt to install a B-7 (which will solve the break angle issue) then the other step would be to: get a new replacement Bigsby bridge and base (stash the originals) and get the undersides of the ends of the bridge (where they contact the adjustment wheels) ground down which will lower the bridge and give you better action at that end of the fretboard.

 

[Jupiter]

You've just about covered everything running through my mind on the matter. The neck joint is solid and shows no signs of slippage or being loose. Taller frets might just get me where I want to be, but it would only be a half fix in my estimation. I could grind down the bridge and lower it as you suggested, but that break angle would get even flatter.... I'm really at a bit of a loss here.

 

[gilded]

Jupiter,

Here is what I know about troubles with old hollow body guitars and Bigsbys: mild break-over angles, 150 lbs of string pressure and bodies that distort in high temperature situations.

Mild Break-Over:

First of all, Bigsbys are designed to be used with relatively mild break-over angles. If the break-over angle is too acute, there is too much down pressure on the bridge top and the top will fall over during use of the Bigsby. Then, you have to stop playing the song and re-adjust your bridge top on the fly, hoping all the while the intonation will be okay for the rest of the set, until you can really make sure the darn thing is in the right place during the break!

150 lbs of string pressure:

Just that, it almost speaks for itself! The average string tension for electric guitars is about 150-175 lbs. Almost everybody stores their guitars at tension and that means there is a constant 150 lb pressure on old wood and old glue.

Extreme Heat:

Okay, so take a guitar that has a mild break-over angle to start with, make sure it has a formed, multi-laminate hollow body and add 150 lbs of string pressure. Then, let it sit in the trunk of car for 30 years worth of gigs, or sit for 15 years in the attic after the original player stops gigging, etc.

Most of these old guitars have been exposed to extreme heat a few times over the decades. This extreme heat will loosen the glue in the body. At the same time, the 150 lbs of string pressure will torque the guitar body. At that point, the body will start to twist or fall in on itself. When the temperature cools down, the glue will dry again, but the guitar will now have a slightly distorted shape. It may twist, it may fall in on itself, but whatever happens it will be different than when it came out of the factory. For you, it means that Mild Break-over moves closer to No Break-over.

I've had this happen to me on at least 3 Guilds (DE500, '66S FIII, even an M65 that twisted without benefit of a Bigsby!)

The symptoms are alway the same:
1) the break-over angle was very mild (too shallow),
2) the bridge top was slammed down as far as it could go,
3) but the action was still too high. [you could play cowboy chords, but not up the neck]

My luthier said there were two fixes; re-set the neck to treat the symptoms of the the body-twist problem, or attempt to re-torque the body, by applying tension to the guitar in the opposite direction of the normal string tension.

I passed on the DE500 and the M65, but I actually had him re-set the neck on the '66 SF III. While the repair turned out well, pulling a neck off that's still good and tight can be problematic. With my Starfire, when the neck steamed out, a 3" strip of the bass-side laminate next to the neck pulled off with it! Thankfully, the finish on my guitar was so cracked-up that when the loose piece of laminate was glued back you couldn't even see the repair, even when you were looking right at it! Would have looked awful on a clean guitar, though.

Jupiter, the good news is that my '66 SFIII was a wonderful guitar after the neck re-set. It was just great! So, if you like everything about the guitar but the action, think about a neck re-set. If you don't, think about passing it along to somebody that likes playing chords at the top of the neck. You'll both be happy.

Oh, you could think about converting it to harp-tail piece model with a Harp tail-piece and non-bigsby bridge (the original bigsby bridges are intonated for guitars with wound 3rd (G) string sets. They won't stay in tune with modern strings sets (unwound 3rd). The later, '90's SFIII bridge tops are intonated for use with unwound 3rd string sets, but the top post holes are different from the original '60s Bigsby bridge bottom, so you'll have to buy both a bridge and a top.

You won't like the B-7 Bigsby with the roller bar on a SFIII. It will put too much down pressure on your bridge top (see above). No bueno. I had one on a Corona BluesBird and it was a chore. Went through a lot of bridge tops. Roller bridges, tune-a-matics. A high maintenance proposition!

In closing, these are all just my opinions, but, Man, I've rode this type of pony before!

Good luck.

 

[Jupiter]

Thanks so much for that, Gilded. I really appreciate you sharing your experiences. Out of curiosity, what would be the advantage of converting it to a hardtail (harp piece)? I realize the need for a higher break over would be eliminated, but wouldn't the bridge height still be an issue? I guess it could still be ground and lowered to the desired height, and the truss rod adjusted for more relief to compensate on the other end, along with lowering the pickups to create more clearance. Would this be better than a neck reset? I suppose it's safer, as you mentioned the risks of steaming a neck with binding. It's kind of a bummer; I really love the Bigsby'd Starfires.

 

[gilded]

Thanks so much for that, Gilded. I really appreciate you sharing your experiences. Out of curiosity, what would be the advantage of converting it to a hardtail (harp piece)? I realize the need for a higher break over would be eliminated, but wouldn't the bridge height still be an issue? I guess it could still be ground and lowered to the desired height, and the truss rod adjusted for more relief to compensate on the other end, along with lowering the pickups to create more clearance. Would this be better than a neck reset? I suppose it's safer, as you mentioned the risks of steaming a neck with binding. It's kind of a bummer; I really love the Bigsby'd Starfires.

Jupiter, a new bridge and harp tailpiece kind of go hand in hand, but you are going to be doing some measuring to get the a bridge that works effectively with the tailpiece.

First off, the strings coming out of a harp tailpiece will be positioned lower than the strings coming off a Bigsby roll bar, so you're going to get more break over angle right away, which is not a bad thing on a fixed tailpiece guitar. Still, your Bigsby bridge is bottomed out, so if you want lower string height, you will have to get a different bridge top/bottom combination, one that sits lower than the one you already have.

[again, you'd want a new bridge anyway, unless you like to use a wound 3rd string. Believe me, once you get used to how out-of-tune the old Bigsby bridges sound with an unwound 3rd string set (I'm talking 'modern-sized' strings, like 9's, 10's and most 11 sets), you will need a new bridge ASAP]

The trick is to find a bridge-top that isn't so wide that the strings come off of the saddle and touch against the back edge of the bridge top before they travel back to the tailpiece. I'm sorry I don't have a pic to show you, but the main thing is that you don't want anything touching the string between the saddle top and the tailpiece. If it does touch, it will kill the sustain of the string and make it sound dull and dead.

What you really need is the specs for some bridges. Go to stewmac.com and look at the spec sheets for their bridges (they'll even have drawings). Here:
http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and...s/Bridges_and_Tailpieces_for_Electric_Guitar/ Hopefully, that will work for you. There are 12 tune-a-matic bridges and 12 tune-a-matic bridge parts. I would look at the narrowest bridges, which are the 'abr-1' style, bridges. Also look at the parts, you'll see thumbwheels and posts for tune-o-magic bridges. Your repair guy could make you a wooden bridge bottom and you could use those posts and wheels!!!! Yay!!

Or, maybe your repair man has a few junkers bridges and can sort it out for you.

Again, good luck and try not to buy too many bridges that don't fit!

PS I wouldn't get a roller bridge unless you have to. Lots of moving parts in the bridges to suck up string energy. I rode that pony, too!

 

[Jupiter]

Wow, great info!! Are you recommending that over a neck reset?

I've used a Gretsch space bridge on a few of these types of guitars in the past. They're ugly as sin, but they've done the trick. The adjustable spacing comes in handy, too.

Also, I've taken some measurements to be sure I'm not being crazy.

Measured from top of fret to bottom of string:

7th fret : 2.0mm
12th fret : 2.5mm
17th fret : 3.0mm

Looking at those makes me think I'm being too sensitive, but the sloppy break angle is where my concerns are stemming from.

 

[gilded]

Your guitar isn't that much cleaner than mine was, so I would go for the reset. But, it very much depends on how much money you have in the guitar and how much you want to spend with a luthier. I don't know what part of the country you live in, but re-sets can get expensive. Even if you get a re-set, you'll probably want to get another bridge choice anyway (wound vs unwound G string, remember?), like the Compton or Tru-Arc bridge tops. You are gonna need a bridge bottom, too.

So, the questions really come back to you. How much do you want to spend chasing the dream SFIII? And how will you feel if you have $800 more in it than you will ever get out?