NAMM 2016: Guild Guitars releases USA-made M-20 and D-20

[kostask]

I have over simplified the tap tuning process some. To add the missing pieces;

1. The top is tap tested after book matching, witj no braces at all. This serves to weed out top wood that may not be suitable for the intended guitar use. No use in putting on braces to a piece of wood that won't ever work out.

2. Braces are put on. They are of a nominal length, width, and height. Basic scallops are cut into the braces. The pattern and size/shape (height/width) are as per the builder's bracing pattern for that type/size guitar. Note that the brace surfaces that are glued to the top have the top curvature already formed. After all is dry, the top is again tap tested. This is where the brace carving, and shaping of the brace (how the brace tapers from the surface glued to the top to the bottom of the brace is shapedm and its height). This is where the experience of the hand builder comes in. Where to scallop, where to taper, and how much can be scalloped and shaped off so that the guitar doesn't collapse from string tension is in the hands, ears, and the eyes of the hand builder, as well as what they are looking for in the tap tones. The intent is to get the top/braces to the correct tonal response, keeping in mind the tone will change when the top is joined to the sides, so a tone that will result in the desired tone after the guitar top is joined to the sides. Sort of pre-compensating the top to get the final tone after the top is joined to the sides..

3. The top is then joined to the back and sides. Again, the tap tuning process is repeated. Every time that the top is changed (from book matched, to braced, to joined to the sides (which serves to add some stiffness to the top)) the tap tuning is repeated. There is only going to be some fairly minor tuning done here as most of the top's tone has been established in step 2. If step 2 was done fairly well, there may not be any material removal at all. This should result in a tone that is very close to the final tone required.

4. Guitar is assembled, and finished. After the guitar finish hardens, the top is tap tested again. In many/most cases, there will not be any tuning required, in some cases there will be.

5. Guitar is strung up with the specified strings, and then tested by playing it, again looking to hear the correct tone. As well, the other parts of the guitar are checked out (intonation, neck releif, saddles/nuts adjusted, look for dead spots on the neck, overall finish check, etc.)

Factories don't do this because it is too time consuming, and because you would need each and every employee to have the skills of a hand builder )i.e. a Ren Ferguson), which is not practical, or even possible. This is why hand built guitars sound the way that they do, and why they cost as much as they do.

 

[Rayk]

I have over simplified the tap tuning process some. To add the missing pieces;

1. The top is tap tested after book matching, witj no braces at all. This serves to weed out top wood that may not be suitable for the intended guitar use. No use in putting on braces to a piece of wood that won't ever work out.

2. Braces are put on. They are of a nominal length, width, and height. Basic scallops are cut into the braces. The pattern and size/shape (height/width) are as per the builder's bracing pattern for that type/size guitar. Note that the brace surfaces that are glued to the top have the top curvature already formed. After all is dry, the top is again tap tested. This is where the brace carving, and shaping of the brace (how the brace tapers from the surface glued to the top to the bottom of the brace is shapedm and its height). This is where the experience of the hand builder comes in. Where to scallop, where to taper, and how much can be scalloped and shaped off so that the guitar doesn't collapse from string tension is in the hands, ears, and the eyes of the hand builder, as well as what they are looking for in the tap tones. The intent is to get the top/braces to the correct tonal response, keeping in mind the tone will change when the top is joined to the sides, so a tone that will result in the desired tone after the guitar top is joined to the sides. Sort of pre-compensating the top to get the final tone after the top is joined to the sides..

3. The top is then joined to the back and sides. Again, the tap tuning process is repeated. Every time that the top is changed (from book matched, to braced, to joined to the sides (which serves to add some stiffness to the top)) the tap tuning is repeated. There is only going to be some fairly minor tuning done here as most of the top's tone has been established in step 2. If step 2 was done fairly well, there may not be any material removal at all. This should result in a tone that is very close to the final tone required.

4. Guitar is assembled, and finished. After the guitar finish hardens, the top is tap tested again. In many/most cases, there will not be any tuning required, in some cases there will be.

5. Guitar is strung up with the specified strings, and then tested by playing it, again looking to hear the correct tone. As well, the other parts of the guitar are checked out (intonation, neck releif, saddles/nuts adjusted, look for dead spots on the neck, overall finish check, etc.)

Factories don't do this because it is too time consuming, and because you would need each at and every employee to have the skills of a hand builder )i.e. a Ren Ferguson), which is not practical, or even possible. This is why hand built guitars sound the way that they do, and why they cost as much as they do.

I understand that and sorry for the confusion, I would assume that first runs are hand built to get the best mass produced tone after which they set up templates to reproduce the finial design for mass production. How they manage consistent woods to maintain tone consistentency through runs is what I find interesting .

 

[merlin6666]

How they manage consistent woods to maintain tone consistentency through runs is what I find interesting .

It's particularly mysterious for Taylor guitars that (at least to my old untrained ears) sound incredibly uniform from guitar to guitar, though I admit I haven't played very many of them.

 

[kostask]

They don't manage consistency of woods to any great degree aside from having a range of woods of each type that would be acceptable. This helps with trying to get a consistent final tone. However, as everybody on the board has seen, production guitars do vary in tone from guitar to guitar, even in the same model and production batch, wood being the unpredictable material that it is. That is why you end up with 10-20% of factory guitars that are truly outstanding, 60-70% that are good, and 10-20% that are not very good. This doesn't happen with hand builders; every guitar needs to come out pretty much perfect. They have the time to work on the guitar so that it is optimized, and at the prices they charge, they pretty much have to get it perfect.

 

[Rayk]

How are the Orpheums handled ?

 

[Neal]

All of the Orpheums were hand-built, Ray, from the best wood in the factory, using hot hide glue exclusively. Hide glue is tough to use in mass production, because it goes bad pretty fast and sets up pretty fast, too.

I watched a video in which Dana Bourgeois carves the top braces on one of his guitars, all the while stopping to tap test the results and flex the top vertically, horizontally and diagonally. He continues to whittle away small slivers of bracing until he gets the top where it is ringing the way he likes it when tapped.

I would suspect that something similar happened in the Guild Custom Shop with the Orpheums.

I would agree with kostask that production line guitars generally don't receive this amount of attention. I do have an '08 D-55 prototype, however, which probably got the royal treatment.

This does not mean that production line guitars can't match the tone of custom shops. They can, and do. But I think your chances of getting something truly spectacular rise with pickier wood selection, and increased attention to detail during the build.

 

[adorshki]

It's particularly mysterious for Taylor guitars that (at least to my old untrained ears) sound incredibly uniform from guitar to guitar, though I admit I haven't played very many of them.

It's a fantastically well-guarded industrial secret that Taylor developed a process for cloning guitars many years ago, shortly before the introduction of the "Big Baby".

 

[jeffcoop]

All of the Orpheums were hand-built, Ray, from the best wood in the factory ...

Certainly not the best *looking* wood, as Sandy and I can attest. (Sounds great, though.)

 

[Neal]

I dunno. This red spruce top looks pretty flawless.

 

[txbumper57]

Certainly not the best *looking* wood, as Sandy and I can attest. (Sounds great, though.)

In all Fairness your OM that used to be Sandy's OM was a "B" Stock Orpheum and sold as such during the Factory liquidation to Street Sounds wasn't it? I imagine the only reason it was labeled as "B" stock was the Visual of the top, Not the sound of it. I have 3 First run Orpheums and the tops are magnificent on all of them. I remember watching a Guild video from New Hartford on the production of the Orpheums with Ren Ferguson taking you through all the steps in the build. It is posted somewhere here on the forum. In the video he was tap testing top wood from the wood stock and personally approving it before it was selected for a guitar. I don't know if that was done on all of them, But The three I have sound Amazing.

 

[Rayk]

I will have to hear more orphs in person though that may take years but the one I heard did not move me , so in a way I have some speculation on the process .
Some vids they shine others not so much but more deadicated Guild owners would to chime in and how they fare to there standard counter parts taking into consideration there 30ish build concept .

 

[davismanLV]

Golly, Neal, what a pretty guitar!! I'd say that top looks about perfect to me!! :encouragement:

 

[merlin6666]

I was just hanging out at my luthier who is also a new Guild dealer and asked him about his namm experience. The guild people told him that they are expecting to produce the full lineup including Orpheums by this summer and said the video of their factory was impressive. He also ordered a few new models though does not think Orpheums would sell. He quite liked the new arched models particularly the 12 string. I'm looking forward to checking it out when he gets it in.

 

[Westerly Wood]

I was just hanging out at my luthier who is also a new Guild dealer and asked him about his namm experience. The guild people told him that they are expecting to produce the full lineup including Orpheums by this summer and said the video of their factory was impressive. He also ordered a few new models though does not think Orpheums would sell. He quite liked the new arched models particularly the 12 string. I'm looking forward to checking it out when he gets it in.

very encouraging update, thanks!

 

[Neal]

Golly, Neal, what a pretty guitar!! I'd say that top looks about perfect to me!! :encouragement:

Thanks, Tom. It has darkened considerably since then. A really nice amber now.

As with my F-47R, I have had to be patient with the red spruce top, giving it time to play in. By comparison, the spruce-topped F-50 and F-30 got "there" a lot faster.

 

[txbumper57]

I was just hanging out at my luthier who is also a new Guild dealer and asked him about his namm experience. The guild people told him that they are expecting to produce the full lineup including Orpheums by this summer and said the video of their factory was impressive. He also ordered a few new models though does not think Orpheums would sell. He quite liked the new arched models particularly the 12 string. I'm looking forward to checking it out when he gets it in.

I have been on and off the phone with Guild over the last few weeks squaring away some things with my latest purchase and I can Confirm Merlin's report. They hope to have most of the traditional and Orpheum models up and going by Summertime! I double checked with them as they listed it in the catalog but just wanted to be sure. They do plan on making the Orpheum 12 Fret Slope in Rosewood as well as Hog. This makes me very Happy! :smile:

 

[chazmo]

Best laid plans.....

Let's see what happens. I'm sure there's going to be demand for the normal Traditional models. Good idea for Ren to get them running on something underneath those before cranking out the big guns.

 

[jeffcoop]

I dunno. This red spruce top looks pretty flawless.

Not this one. As I said, it sounds pretty amazing, but anyone paying serious attention to looks would not have selected this top for a guitar with a MAP of roughly $3800.

 

[twocorgis]

In all Fairness your OM that used to be Sandy's OM was a "B" Stock Orpheum and sold as such during the Factory liquidation to Street Sounds wasn't it?

That particular OM might have been "B" stock when Jeff bought it TX, but it was most definitely "A" stock (with a commensurate price) when I originally bought it from Carl at Union Music after the factory closed. I know that Jeff got it at a much better price than I paid, but I was livid when it arrived with a top like that and returned it. Little did I know I' d never find another one. Had I known that, I would have done some negotiation with Carl at the time.

 

[kostask]

I don't have as much an issue with that guitar's appearance as some here do. For me, guitars are something used to make nice sounds, they are not a fashion accessory. I got a solid grounding in reality on one of my first acoustics, a Quebec made Lys L18-CW. It was a small factory in the La Patrie region of Quebec, and made, spruce top, walnut back and sides, sharp cutaway. The guitar sounded great, as in outstanding. Spruce top has these odd brown stripes in it; not grain lines, the actual sap wood would go darker in some areas near the tail of the guitar. I didn't care, it sounded just so good to me. Later on, as I got to know, and later become friends with luthiers and hand builders that are local, they mentioned it to me. amd showed me what a high end top looked like, with bear claw, and in some cases, jaw dropping silking of the top. Didn't really change my opinion of my Lys guitar though, and it sounded great to me; so I just really put it down to personal preference. Still do. I will always buy a great sounding guitar with a so-so top, vs. a so-so sounding guitar with a great/perfect top. Just me, though.