My Blem CV-1 Arrived - Trainwreck Neck

[capnjuan]

Some interesting shucking and jiving by seller of this eBay CD-1. Seller says: "I hand pick my guitars from factory closeouts and seconds, selecting only quality instruments. ... Any that had blemishes have been restored by an expert luthier ... They are stamped with a tiny "used" on the back of headstock to prevent dishonest dealers from selling you an instrument claiming it is warranteed. What you get is a brand name, quality instrument for a fraction of the cost."

.... but never quite saying what you don't get; a warranty. Buyer has to scotch-tape together the 'used' stamp and the no mention of warranty for themselves. Nice testimonials too; if not written by the seller then probably their daughter, next-door neighbor, brother in law ...

 

[Scratch]

Yeah. That's pretty pathetic, for sure, John. If Fender had any scruples at all, they would have destroyed the contemporaries that did not pass QC. Instead, they wholesale them out to unreputable distributors who tarnish the brand with embarrasing products.

I was hoping you'd have better results, Jeff. Ross also makes custom guitars. I may come out of this with a Jennings Guild :lol: I've got too much in it now to back out. I told him to keep it and tweek it until it it passes his QC. Full fretboard sanding, full & redress, full refret, neck mod & reset, just the start... I can't help but think these blems may have been crafted by apprentices, then stashed away until Fender moved out of Tacoma. The ironic thing is that the burst finish is knock dead gorgeous and it is probably the prettiest guitar in his shop (and he has lots of pretty guitars in that shop)...

 

[Scratch]

Update: I had hoped Ross the Magic Luthier would have the CV-1 ready by the end of this week. I talked with Ross yesterday, and it is now projected for mid/late next week. Why? He stated he had never seen anything quite like the neck joint of the CV-1. In so many words, he was not complimentary of Guild's attempt to engineer a bolt on neck. Ross has more than 35 years of luthier experience and is highly sought/regarded by Austin/Central Texas musicians. He raves about Guild dove tail joints and considers them among the best in the business. He said, for example, the neck on my Tacoma D40 is among the best he has seen from any production manfacturer. The contemporary series bolt on necks are a great idea without substantive engineering...

Bottom Line: The repair will more than likely run higher than the original estimate of 340.00. Ross is the best there is around these parts and I trust him completely. He has significantly more work to do to make 'The Duke' rock solid. I told him to just do it and I'll request stimulus money... :wink: He also said he's leaning strongly to making it to Arlington in October to meet the 'Guild Guys'...

For what it is worth, at this point, I suggest that you do not take advantage of the eBay CV-1, CV-2 or CD series used guitars that are easily available at bargain prices. These necks are very poorly engineered, not worthy of patent, and will require significant $$ to make them right. I estimate my $899.00 contemporary series bargain will now wind up around 1500.00 before it is up to professional standards. Update next week...

Scratch, I'm sorry to hear that it's going to be very expensive, out of curiosity, what doesn't your luthier like about this design?Once again, pics would be of great help.

On my side, I've been playing my CV-2C for more than a month now, the sound is gettin much, much better, the top resonates more that in the beginning. I and two luthiers checked the joint and the fretboard and they both agree that they're dead straight, the guitar didn't need a fret leveling and just working on the nut I've an action of 2 mm at the 12st fret, she plays like butter.

Honestly, if I didn't hear about this problem on this board I wouldn't have had any dubt on the solidity of the guitar, I agree that the design of the neck joint is very...original but I'm almost convinced that the problems many experienced are a result of a poor setup at the factory that cannot be corrected by the luthiers because the design is original and FMIC didn't release the information they need.

For ebay I'm considering purchasing another Cv-2C, sunburst, because I always wanted that finish, I know I shouldn't waste my money in this period of financial crisis but the GAS attack is pretty strong at the moment...

Alex,
I think you'll be OK if you stay away from the 'Blems'. Ironically, my first Guild was a blem D25 from Corona; with the 'used' stamp on the back of the headstock. That antique burst finish guitar was absolutely gorgeous and played beautifully. In fact, I wish I had it back. I tried several times to identify the blemish on that Corona D25 and never could find it. Perhaps that is why I took the chance on this one. I don't think I'll ever do so again after this experience. I'd get some pics, but Ross' shop is many miles away. I'll post some of the finished product once received. Hopefully next week...

 

[chazmo]

[ ... ]If Fender had any scruples at all, they would have destroyed the contemporaries that did not pass QC. Instead, they wholesale them out to unreputable distributors who tarnish the brand with embarrasing products.

Scratch, I think that's a little harsh. It's my understanding that these guitars go through MIRC (or some other reclamation center) where they are worked on and "repaired" before being sold. It's rare that you see these advertised by sellers without proper disclaimers. It's a little bit of caveat emptor in this case -- I mean anyone who doesn't question why they're getting a steep discount off a new guitar with USED stamped on the headstock is a fool.

That all said, I think Fender made a mistake with these Contemporary necks. I always like to give kudos to Tacoma for their creativity, but this looks like it should've been canned. And, I agree with you that they should've destroyed these Contemporaries that weren't working.

So, it's one thing to have a "factory second" program for damaged/blemished instruments where people can buy repaired, new gear for low prices. And, we can surely debate the merits of that in the first place (which we have a bit around here). But, releasing defective stuff to that program is clearly a mistake and tarnishes Guild.

 

[chazmo]

Hey, Scratchy, I just re-read your post and then mine and I realized that I basically agreed with what you said in the first place. D'OH! I didn't get a lot of sleep last night.

 

[cuthbert]

Scratch, I think that's a little harsh. It's my understanding that these guitars go through MIRC (or some other reclamation center) where they are worked on and "repaired" before being sold. It's rare that you see these advertised by sellers without proper disclaimers. It's a little bit of caveat emptor in this case -- I mean anyone who doesn't question why they're getting a steep discount off a new guitar with USED stamped on the headstock is a fool.

That all said, I think Fender made a mistake with these Contemporary necks. I always like to give kudos to Tacoma for their creativity, but this looks like it should've been canned. And, I agree with you that they should've destroyed these Contemporaries that weren't working.

So, it's one thing to have a "factory second" program for damaged/blemished instruments where people can buy repaired, new gear for low prices. And, we can surely debate the merits of that in the first place (which we have a bit around here). But, releasing defective stuff to that program is clearly a mistake and tarnishes Guild.

Chazmo, I think I already said it somewhere, but my Cv-2C was printed "used" before laquering the neck, or they relacquered the neck at MIRC, which is unlikely, I think.

My instrument looks brand new, there are no "repairs", at all, I suspect they simply completed the last guitars at Tacoma with their stock parts and sell them without warranty.

Scratch, the other Guild Cv-2C I'm pointed at is also a USED instrument...I feel a little guilty because I already have this one and I'm very happy of the instrument, but I think I'm a serious case of GAS...

Well, a friend o'mine tried this guitar and he asked me to sell her, so I assume I can find a buyer after all...

 

[capnjuan]

[ ... ]If Fender had any scruples at all, they would have destroyed the contemporaries that did not pass QC. Instead, they wholesale them out to unreputable distributors who tarnish the brand with embarrasing products.

Scratch, I think that's a little harsh. It's my understanding that these guitars go through MIRC (or some other reclamation center) where they are worked on and "repaired" before being sold ... It's a little bit of caveat emptor in this case -- I mean anyone who doesn't question why they're getting a steep discount off a new guitar with USED stamped on the headstock is a fool..

Hi Chaz; your defense of FMIC is .... eh .... inspiring and your 'caveat emptor' expression of sympathy for people with hosed-up Guilds is most moving. :wink: Respectfully, I think you give them too much credit for being the company that probably never really was but we'd all like to think used to be.

 

[chazmo]

[ ... ]If Fender had any scruples at all, they would have destroyed the contemporaries that did not pass QC. Instead, they wholesale them out to unreputable distributors who tarnish the brand with embarrasing products.

Scratch, I think that's a little harsh. It's my understanding that these guitars go through MIRC (or some other reclamation center) where they are worked on and "repaired" before being sold ... It's a little bit of caveat emptor in this case -- I mean anyone who doesn't question why they're getting a steep discount off a new guitar with USED stamped on the headstock is a fool..

Hi Chaz; your defense of FMIC is .... eh .... inspiring and your 'caveat emptor' expression of sympathy for people with hosed-up Guilds is most moving. :wink: Respectfully, I think you give them too much credit for being the company that probably never really was but we'd all like to think used to be.

I do tend to put the rose-colored glasses on occasionally, CJ. As a relative newcomer to the Guild fold, I think I'm entitled to that self-deception.

I will point out, however, how much shock we expressed WiW was telling us about how Fender dumpstered so much of the inventory and stock from Westerly. That was seemingly without cause and a reason to hate Fender. Now, we see the flip side of that here at Tacoma where they didn't dumpster things that they should have.

I'm just sayin' is all...

 

[capnjuan]

... I'm just sayin' is all... ...

I too wish they'd worry a little more about their reputation. Chances are, they've done marketing studies and figured out that among the 18-44 yo set, they either don't have one or what they have is stinky. The rest of it is that for every 1 new Tacoma that a member here reported buying, 50 used Guilds have been bought/sold by this BB membership ... we, who seem to be hung up most about the brand's ... uh ... dignity, we don't really buy that many new guitars.

It's almost a certainty that somebody from Guild wanders through here from time to time. Whoever they are must report back that the old boys and girls are smokin' it again; believing that today's production shop guitar market could accomodate largely 19th century ideals; integrity, workmanship ... Their view is probably that if we want that stuff, we should patronize custom luthiers because Guild doesn't offer it or, even if it did, we wouldn't buy it anyway.

 

[Jeff]

... I'm just sayin' is all... ...

I too wish they'd worry a little more about their reputation. Chances are, they've done marketing studies and figured out that among the 18-44 yo set, they either don't have one or what they have is stinky. The rest of it is that for every 1 new Tacoma that a member here reported buying, 50 used Guilds have been bought/sold by this BB membership ... we, who seem to be hung up most about the brand's ... uh ... dignity, we don't really buy that many new guitars.

It's almost a certainty that somebody from Guild wanders through here from time to time. Whoever they are must report back that the old boys and girls are smokin' it again; believing that today's production shop guitar market could accomodate largely 19th century ideals; integrity, workmanship ... Their view is probably that if we want that stuff, we should patronize custom luthiers because Guild doesn't offer it or, even if it did, we wouldn't buy it anyway.

Interesting conversation.

I've not taken the time to research the issue, however, I've not heard of Factory Second/defective/reject Martins, Gibsons or Taylors. Am I confused ???

Integrity, while still in Websters dictionary seems to command little respect in today's corporate world.

 

[cuthbert]

Interesting conversation.

I've not taken the time to research the issue, however, I've not heard of Factory Second/defective/reject Martins, Gibsons or Taylors. Am I confused ???

Integrity, while still in Websters dictionary seems to command little respect in today's corporate world.

Never heard about Taylors and Martins, but I'm sure that Gibson until the 80s sold guitar printed "second" on the back of the headstock.

 

[capnjuan]

... but I'm sure that Gibson until the 80s sold guitar printed "second" on the back of the headstock.

Hi Cuthbert: it's a fact. From this Gibson Collector's Information Page (my underlining)

"PegHead Markings other than Serial Numbers ("seconds")

Gibson often marked inferior quality guitars as "seconds", and sold them at a discount to dealers or employees. These markings were stamped into the wood on the back of the peghead. A "2" stamp is sometimes seen, designating a "second", which had some cosmetic flaw. If there is a serial number on the back of the peghead, the "2" is usually seen centered above or below it. Also sometimes stamped was "CULL", which is another designation of a second. Again, this stamp is seen on the back of the peghead.

The worse Gibson reject is the "BGN" stamp, designating that instrument as a "bargain" guitar.These were only sold to employees at substantial discounts. This stamp is also seen on the back of the peghead. Sometimes the "BGN" is stamped vertically with the "N" below the "G" which is below the "B". BGN instruments weren't acceptable to Gibson as sellable to the public. All second instruments are usually worth less than the same guitar that is not a second (given condition as the same). BGN instruments are worth less than a second instrument because these tend to have some fairly serious cosmetic flaw."


The information on the page looks like it applies more to 'collector' or pre-Norlin/pre-Heritage Gibsons than current production. I don't know what Gibson's current policy is. CJ

 

[cuthbert]

Hi Cuthbert: it's a fact. From this Gibson Collector's Information Page (my underlining)

"PegHead Markings other than Serial Numbers ("seconds")

Gibson often marked inferior quality guitars as "seconds", and sold them at a discount to dealers or employees. These markings were stamped into the wood on the back of the peghead. A "2" stamp is sometimes seen, designating a "second", which had some cosmetic flaw. If there is a serial number on the back of the peghead, the "2" is usually seen centered above or below it. Also sometimes stamped was "CULL", which is another designation of a second. Again, this stamp is seen on the back of the peghead.

The worse Gibson reject is the "BGN" stamp, designating that instrument as a "bargain" guitar.These were only sold to employees at substantial discounts. This stamp is also seen on the back of the peghead. Sometimes the "BGN" is stamped vertically with the "N" below the "G" which is below the "B". BGN instruments weren't acceptable to Gibson as sellable to the public. All second instruments are usually worth less than the same guitar that is not a second (given condition as the same). BGN instruments are worth less than a second instrument because these tend to have some fairly serious cosmetic flaw."

The information on the page looks like it applies more to 'collector' or pre-Norlin/pre-Heritage Gibsons than current production. I don't know what Gibson's current policy is. CJ

Gibson's current policy seems to sell 2nds as 1st, according to the sellers of my town, as a matter of fact, I've seen pretty bad guitars in the last years, even my '84 reissue, that I love, has a disappointing finish (you can see the grain through) and they used jumbo frets but they didn't care to raise the nut...with the result that it's not possible to lower the action as it could be. Besides that the cut of the ebony fingerboard is approximative at best, in comparison, my "USED" CV-2C is a jewel...seriously, the nitro finish is perfect and there aren't no issue whatsoever, that's the reason why I suspect they weren't flawed guitars but they simply decided to liquidate the entire final production printing used before finishing them and sell them once that the plant of Tacoma was closed. My guitar is definitely 1st, and one of the best.

Oh talking about GAS attacks, I've to say "forgive me father, for I have sinned...again":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Another supposed "USED" guitar, I know I shouldn't waste my money takign two Cv-2C, but you know, I always loved Guild's sunburst on maple backs and sides...I'll repent, I swear... :wink:

P.S.When she arrives, I'll try to pull off the neck. The seller told me that the action is 3 mm on the low E string,so reasonably low, I don't expect any issues on the neck like in my actual blonde. We'll see.

 

[capnjuan]

Hi CB; if this were golf, buying these 'C' guitars would be risk/reward shots - some risk but, if they are ok, a lot of reward. I hope all of your recent 'C' models give you years of trouble-free tone. My limited understanding of new Gibson guitars is that regardless of model, they all need a trip to the luthier for final tweaking ... they aren't in 'plug and play' condition. :wink: J

 

[Scratch]

Just talked with Ross. I'll pick up the 'Duke' tomorrow after work. Less than 350.00 as it turns out; he said I'm gonna like it... :mrgreen:

 

[zplay]

Just talked with Ross. I'll pick up the 'Duke' tomorrow after work. Less than 350.00 as it turns out; he said I'm gonna like it... :mrgreen:

Koo-uul!! Sounds very promising; can't wait for your hands on report.

 

[Scratch]

Just talked with Ross. I'll pick up the 'Duke' tomorrow after work. Less than 350.00 as it turns out; he said I'm gonna like it... :mrgreen:

Koo-uul!! Sounds very promising; can't wait for your hands on report.

Just elevated $60 to (now) $407.00. Appears the factory nut was shimmed for some reason. Ross will replace with a custom bone nut.

 

[cuthbert]

Just talked with Ross. I'll pick up the 'Duke' tomorrow after work. Less than 350.00 as it turns out; he said I'm gonna like it... :mrgreen:

Koo-uul!! Sounds very promising; can't wait for your hands on report.

Just elevated $60 to (now) $407.00. Appears the factory nut was shimmed for some reason. Ross will replace with a custom bone nut.

So the problem was the nut and not the neck? :? :? :? :? :? :?

That's surprising, the nut of my Flying V was low (better, the '84 reissue does have higher frets and Gibson kindly didn't think to retool the nut slot...) but it created problems just with very low action (the one I'm used to play) and on the first two frets...

 

[Scratch]

The problems were 1. nut, 2. neck (required full sanding and refinishing/redressing, refretting) and 3. the bridge was thicker than the specs call for, so Ross took it off and sanded to proper specs. No wonder this guitar didn't pass QC!

 

[capnjuan]

The problems were 1. nut, 2. neck (required full sanding and refinishing/redressing, refretting) and 3. the bridge was thicker than the specs call for, so Ross took it off and sanded to proper specs. No wonder this guitar didn't pass QC!

Hi Ken; for whatever reasons, it wasn't the only one. There must be close to a dozen 'used' C models on eBay and each seller claiming to have squared away problems. I sure hope your happy with it when the Magician is done with it! John