My Blem CV-1 Arrived - Trainwreck Neck

[guildzilla]

FMICSNAFU

 

[cuthbert]

Hi cuthbert; some time ago, there was an axonometric drawing of the joint on the web ... maybe on Guild's own site. If it was there, it isn't now. There may be a mating piece at the end of the neck; that is, the whole assembly may be two pieces; what's seen in the pic above and another piece. It's a little hard to believe that the neck is held on by the one bolt that appears to be heading for the headstock. I really don't know how it's supposed to work. J

Edit: if there isn't a mating piece, then that isn't a bolt going 'north', it has to be a screw. Were it a bolt, it'd need something to thread into. Don't really know which it is. j

It would be very helpful to see the axonometry of the joint, if Fender doesn't want to repair these guitars under warranty, at least they should spill the information to solve the mistery of the Dreaded Carbon Fiber Rubik Cube.

Anyway, believe it or not the neck of an Ovation is attached to the bowl by a single bolt, although larger than the one we see in the article of Acoustic Guitar, in this case, it seems to me that the block is tightened into the mating piece (the other carbon fiber corse in the neck, at least for what I understood the neck of the contemporary series is reinforced...) by that bolt for compression and for shear stress by the other three bolts that seems to go under the fingerboard...

 

[cuthbert]

Absolutely. Oh, and in our line of work (I'm sure you've heard this before), that's called a "Rube Goldberg" machine -- completely over-engineered and not necessarily good at its primary job.

I think I'll sound presuntous, but as mechanical engineer I'd have designed this carbon fiber cube more efficiently.

P.S. Good 4th of july to all the amerikans onboad. Guitar not arrived, not sleeping well, enjoy the fireworks for me too.

 

[kitniyatran]

Hi Elrod; do you remember that the Attorney Gen. of FL brought a class-action suit against Microsoft in the '90s for predatory marketing practices? Forcing PC mfrs to buy/install MS operating systems? I know the AG meant well and I know MS meant evil, but the benefit to me effectively worked out to the equivalent of a handful of those 'cents off' coupons from the newspaper and was valid only towards to cost of yet another 'puter. Was tempted to write the AG and ask him not to do me any more favors. :evil:

Yeah, I remember that.
Kind of like the occasional notice I get of class action suits; if they win, I might get a check for 50 cents! :?
Or the DVD I bought at Best Buy that wouldn't play in my machine. The store would only do an exchange for another of the same one, from the same batch, which, obviously wasn't going to play, either :roll: . Finally resolved by calling the home office, but they don't make it easy to get the number. :evil:

 

[Jeff]

Hey Jeff; still got that set of Alllen wrenches you borrowed from your neighbor?

Actually it's the other way around, the neighbor hasn't returned "my" allen wrenches, & just this morning he came over to borrow my leaf blower, cordless drill & 11/16 socket wrench.

And just what the heck is axonometric . :roll:

 

[capnjuan]

Hey Jeff; still got that set of Alllen wrenches you borrowed from your neighbor?

Actually it's the other way around, the neighbor hasn't returned "my" allen wrenches, & just this morning he came over to borrow my leaf blower, cordless drill & 11/16 socket wrench .... And just what the heck is axonometric .

That guy has a lot of nerve :evil: Axonometric is a style of 3-D cutaway ... can see all the parts in three dimensions:

 

[taabru45]

Something like this? :lol: Steffan

 

[capnjuan]

Well ...yes and no but I think I feel a M.C. Escher headache coming on ...

 

[cuthbert]

Post people sticked a note at my door today...I think that the wrecked train is arrived.

I'll keep you informed on the outcome of the Rubik neck block dilemma.

 

[chazmo]

Cuthbert,

I'm crossing my fingers for you that there were no wrecked trains involved in the production of your Contemporary. Keep us posted!

 

[cuthbert]

Cuthbert,

I'm crossing my fingers for you that there were no wrecked trains involved in the production of your Contemporary. Keep us posted!

Thanks, Chazmo, the guitar arrived yesterday, and inside the bracing there's the patent number of the composite neck that was discussed in this thread, it's 6888055, I found the document, interesting reading.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... PN/6888055

Later I'll post some pics.

 

[capnjuan]

Thanks cuthbert; couldn't get to the images ... also, one of the co-inventors is George Blanda ... not the same George in the link but coincidentally one of the greatest names in American professional football history ... his son?

 

[zplay]

Cuthbert,

I'm crossing my fingers for you that there were no wrecked trains involved in the production of your Contemporary. Keep us posted!

Thanks, Chazmo, the guitar arrived yesterday, and inside the bracing there's the patent number of the composite neck that was discussed in this thread, it's 6888055, I found the document, interesting reading.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... PN/6888055

Later I'll post some pics.

Thanks Cuthbert!

I started to read the patent info, the text of which seems to lift the term "redundency" up into new, as yet unappreciated heights! Only got through the first page and it seems like my computer will need a special plug-in to enable the drawings; might get to that later. The part I read goes on and on about the support rod, though I'm most interested in the "proximal"
end - the neck joint and upper bout supports. Anyway I'll be interested to try to get further into it if I can and read the impressions of others here.

I got hold of an Allen wrench(?5/32") and did tighten up the bolts on the underside of the fretboard, which seemed to reduce the gap between fretboard extention and upper bout as seen from the side, particularly more toward the neck block.

 

[capnjuan]

.... Only got through the first page and it seems like my computer will need a special plug-in to enable the drawings; might get to that later.

I don't think the 'Images' section for the neck-block is available. If you click any of the referenced patents and then click at the bottom of the page for the images, they come up ... they just don't boot for the neck-block patent images whether you click on the left or at the bottom.

I think the purpose of the references are to direct the patent examiner to similar or related patents. The examiner is supposed to determine whether something is 'new' or sufficiently different from existing stuff; I don't think he even has to worry about whether something works or works well; the only question is whether the patent being applied for is a dupe/functional dupe of something that's already patented.

If the patent is still pending, those appying for the patent may be allowed to conceal the details of what they are trying to patent; otherwise anybody interested could use it free of charge until a patent was granted or denied. Anyway, maybe that's why the images don't boot.

CJ

 

[cuthbert]

Found some of the pictures of the patents here:

http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6888055.html

But it seems they're mostly about the composite bars in the neck, but they aren't exaustive...maybe we should open a discussion about this patent in the "free" area, since it's of common interest for the guests as well...

 

[capnjuan]

... But it seems they're mostly about the composite bars in the neck, but they aren't exaustive ...

Hi cuthbert; I didn't notice it before but it's because the neck bar is the subject of the patent; not the internal neck block and neck-mounted mating piece ... if there is one ... the subject of some other patent? cj

 

[cuthbert]

... But it seems they're mostly about the composite bars in the neck, but they aren't exaustive ...

Hi cuthbert; I didn't notice it before but it's because the neck bar is the subject of the patent; not the internal neck block and neck-mounted mating piece ... if there is one ... the subject of some other patent? cj

What I know is that on my guitar there's the stamp of this patent...close to the block...

Sorry, it's almost 8 PM and still in office...later I'll post the pics of my guitar.

P.S:this patent also mention the "joint to the body"... :?

 

[capnjuan]

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... PN/6888055 and later "...Found some of the pictures of the patents here: http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6888055.html and later P.S:this patent also mention the "joint to the body"...

6888055 Guitar neck support rod:

Abstract: "A support rod has a core and has a composite material covering at least a portion of the core. The support rod is suitable for use in enhancing the rigidity of the neck of a musical instrument, such as a guitar. The support rod is also suitable for use in a wide variety of other applications."

"joint to the body"???

If you can get the patent #, that would really be helpful. J

 

[zplay]

... But it seems they're mostly about the composite bars in the neck, but they aren't exaustive ...

Hi cuthbert; I didn't notice it before but it's because the neck bar is the subject of the patent; not the internal neck block and neck-mounted mating piece ... if there is one ... the subject of some other patent? cj

What I know is that on my guitar there's the stamp of this patent...close to the block...

Sorry, it's almost 8 PM and still in office...later I'll post the pics of my guitar.

P.S:this patent also mention the "joint to the body"... :?

Great stuff, all! I know zip about patent apps, so this is a bit of an education.

By the way, Cuthbert, how do you like the guitar so far?

 

[cuthbert]

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... PN/6888055 and later "...Found some of the pictures of the patents here: http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6888055.html and later P.S:this patent also mention the "joint to the body"...

6888055 Guitar neck support rod:

Abstract: "A support rod has a core and has a composite material covering at least a portion of the core. The support rod is suitable for use in enhancing the rigidity of the neck of a musical instrument, such as a guitar. The support rod is also suitable for use in a wide variety of other applications."

"joint to the body"???

If you can get the patent #, that would really be helpful. J

It's in the description of PN6888055:

As those skilled in the art will appreciate, that portion of a stringed musical instrument, such as a guitar, where the neck attaches to the body thereof tends to be a weak point, where undesirable bowing commonly occurs. This attachment pointcan be thought of as defining a hinge about which the neck pivots (although typically only very slightly) relative to the body, so as to permit bowing due to excessive string tension.

and:

However, it must be appreciated that a tension rod adjusts the amount of bow in the neck by varying the curvature of the neck about the center portion of the length of the neck. Thus, such adjustment of the tension rod changes the curvature ofthe neck by causing the neck to bend about its own center. However, the bowing of the instrument caused at the attachment point of the neck to the body thereof is occurring at the proximal end (attachment end) of the neck, rather than near the center ofthe length of the neck. Therefore, such an attempt to compensate for bowing at the attachment point of the neck generally results in the introduction of further undesirable deformation of the neck, rather than compensating for the original deformationat the attachment point. This may result in a generally S-shaped curvature of the neck, which may make the musical instrument unplayable.

Although such deformation is typically very small when measured, it is important to appreciate that even a slight amount of deformation may render a stringed musical instrument unplayable. For example, bowing of the neck of a guitar in thedirection in which the strings tend to pull the neck results in a greater distance between the strings and the frets for higher pitched notes than for lower pitched notes on a given string. This is the type of bowing which frequently occurs at theattachment point of the neck to the body of a musical instrument, as discussed above. Such bowing inherently requires that a guitar player push higher pitched notes further downward (to the fingerboard) than lower pitched notes. As those skilled in theart will appreciate, pushing the string further downward in order to play a note stretches the string more, thereby increasing the tension on the string and consequently undesirably increasing the pitch of the resulting note. Thus, the higher pitchednotes of a guitar having a neck which is bowed in this manner will be pitched too high and will thus be out of tune.

Here they briefly talk about how the graphite bars are attached to the body:

Finally:

The support rods 10 of the present invention need not be generally circular in configuration. For example, if the support rods 10 of the present invention are to be disposed within the body 72 of a guitar and are to be in contact with either thesoundboard or back of the guitar body 72, then the support rods 10 preferably have a flat portion extending along at least a portion of the length thereof to facilitate such contact. In this instance, the support rods 10 may, for example, be formed soas to be generally square in cross-sectional configuration, so as to provide such a flat surface. FIG. 10 shows an embodiment of a square support rod 10 which may be positioned with the neck 70 or body 72 of a musical instrument.

Where adhesive bonding, such as via the use of epoxy, is disclosed herein, DP100 epoxy, provided by the 3M Corporation of St. Paul, Minn., may generally be used.