MEDIC ! My Carvin just crapped out on me

DThomasC

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John, Frono is correct. I have been struggling with how to say what I did without making it sound like I'm calling anyone names. This morning I was a bit grumpy and responded to your idea of replacing the power transformer in a way that could have been more tactful.

Now that it's all out on the table, I will not deny that I'm suspicious of your measurements. But I don't know that it's your fault. It could be the meter. I just don't know, but I can't draw firm conclusions from data that is suspect.
 

JohnW63

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Sorry.

I've got decades using multimeters and spent 2 years on college in electronics. Analog and digital stuff. The meter looks like a pretty decent unit. It's not some Radio Shack 12 dollar needle style. I'll bring back the Fluke from work and double check stuff. Part of my frustration is that with my background I really should have been able to crack a few old books and figure it out myself.
 

fronobulax

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Part of my frustration is that with my background I really should have been able to crack a few old books and figure it out myself.

Sadly that is a common cause for frustration these days as we mature :)

In your defense, I will add that debugging this remotely and primarily by text makes it harder than (for example) to people working on the same bench.

At least you have good suggestions for a new amp if this doesn't get resolved without a visit to a pro and the associated exchange of money.
 

JohnW63

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I decided to take another look at things and I found something that I don't understand with my meters.

If I have the probes on the green pair, coming from the input transformer in one orientation, I read 2.6 volts, but if I flip the probes, I get 6 volts. Same on the red wires. 290v in one way, and 140v the other way. That doesn't make sense to me. It like I only read half the voltage with one position of the probes.

This only happens with the Fluke meter. I used another digital multimeter I have, and the readings are stable at the high values, no matter which probe I put in the connector.

I have a second , newer, Fluke meter at work. I'll bring that one home and see if I get a consensus on readings
 

Nuuska

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Oh my - so much analyzing goes to drain because one faulty Fluke - but on the positive side of it - we have been rubbing "our little gray cells" (Hercule Poirot) - and it's good excercise.

So when you get it - measure all operation voltages
- AC @ X-former output plus filaments of other tubes but V1
- DC on filament of V1 and anodes and other pins at tubes.

btw - you use term "input transformer" - it is misleading, while in audio circuits there is such thing - like in mixers etc.
real term is power transformer - even though the power goes into amp via it.
 

SFIV1967

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btw - you use term "input transformer" - it is misleading, while in audio circuits there is such thing - like in mixers etc.
real term is power transformer - even though the power goes into amp via it.
Actually John used both terms like in post #31: "I get 320vac coming in from the input ( power ) transformer. "
Now let's see what his Fluke from work will get him. Interesting thread!
Ralf
 

Nuuska

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Right - slipped my mind - let's see if we get this puppy healthy and running with a new Fluke
 

JohnW63

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There are input transformers on mixers ?

I'm not going to point to all readings as being faulty, since I started with the other multimeter, and those readings were suspect as well. The Fluke was a second opinion. Besides, the higher voltage lines were too high on both meters.
 

Nuuska

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here is Studer 980 mixing console microphone input stage - notice there are TWO transformers

IMG_4128.jpg


Most pa-boards today are electrically balanced - but many older boards had trafos, too - very seldom anything as comlicated as in Studer - but then there's THAT SWISS SOUND.

Comes with a hefty price tag, too. A 40-channel console was about 250 000 USD in 1995
 

JohnW63

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The top left looks like two, but I suppose they could be housed in one unit. Then the bottom one connected to the second stage of the top one. So, this is inductively coupling the input of a mic ?
 

DThomasC

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A typical reason to have an input transformer is because the source is balanced. A guitar output is not balanced; it has a hot and ground. Balanced signals have two hot conductors that have the same impedance with respect to ground. They might also have the same signal, just 180 degrees out of phase, but they don't have to; the balanced impedance is the defining feature.

Balanced signals are useful because it makes it easier to filter noise that gets picked up between the source (microphone) and amplifier. Because both wires have the same impedance WRT ground they both pick up the same noise with the same phase. The noise signal in both wires is going up and down at the same time WRT ground. It's called common mode signal. Meanwhile, the music signal is differential mode; it is the difference in voltage between the two wires.

So, if you have some kind of fancy electronics that can separate the common mode from the differential mode signals then you can recover the music and reject the noise. The earliest way to do that was with a transformer. Today it's cheaper to build an amplifier with balanced input by using clever electronics. Transformers are expensive. As a point of interest, old school wired telephone systems were all balanced. Think about it: thousands of miles of wire strung along the same poles that carry electricity, yet you never heard ANY 50Hz or 60Hz hum. Part of the reason is that the frequency response was deliberately band limited to reject frequencies that low, but the main reason was the balanced circuit.

Anyway, this is actually a common mode choke, not a transformer. It filters out much of the common mode noise. The rest will be eliminated by the input transformers.

CMChoke.png


This is the first input transformer. The balanced signal goes in pins 8 and 9.

inputtransformer.png


The output, minus the common mode noise, is taken off of pins 3 and 4. But what about pins 5 and 6? To understand them, think in terms of current instead of voltage. The differential mode music current goes in pin 8 and comes out pin 9 - or the other way around, really back and forth because it's an AC signal. Along the way it goes in and out of pins 5 and 6 and then through the second transformer pins 3 and 5. So the same signal current goes through the primaries of two input transformers.

secondtransformer.png


I admit that I don't know why they did it that way, nor do I have a good grasp of the rest of the circuit. Maybe Nuuska can shed some light.
 

Nuuska

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"Maybe Nuuska can shed some light."

Nah - I just enjoy having the desk . . . but then - why not try - I do not have the planning data of that console here - but if my shaky memory hasn't left the building - I recall the double transformer idea being used to diminish the anomalities of the input transformers.

Notice, that on the lower transformer there are two secondary windings wired parallel. One feeding signal from top trafo - one sending signal further out.

As you correctly say - the impedance is symmetrical - from that follows that the signals are symmetrical, too - assuming the source is symmetrical. In the manual of this desk there is a place, where they heavily emphasize the importance of tolerance between "parallel" components - the absolute value comes secondary.


And while we have arrived symmetry . . .

Guitars are symmetrical sources by nature - only they are stupidly wired asymmetrical with all grief following. I wrote last year or previous or . . . in some other thread here about a quite simple, fully reversible wiring conversion, that could be done to any passive pup guitar - and which would give some benefits. The picture lurks somewhere there. Maybe GAD could tell, if there's a possibility to search of one's pictures only ???

Difference to "normal wiring" - separate signal and ground - use "stero" output jack with signal wired to tip and ring - and ground to sleeve. Ground here means strings via bridge - pup covers - pot covers. So do NOT connect signal ground to pot covers etc. Works with any guitar cable as before. BUT !!! If you wish to utilize the benefits - use special guitar cable - stereo plug in guitar end - mono plug in amp end. Microphone cable in between - two leads plus shield. In mono end the lead that is connected to RING in guitar end will be connected to sleeve among shield. Now you have signal - and only signal in those two leads. And the shield carries no signal - it is just being shield - protecting your precious signal.

I suppose, that in most cases the difference between "normal" would not be very noticable - especially when there is no electric interference. But when circumstances get rougher - there might be quite big difference.
 

JohnW63

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My newest Ovation had an XLR and mono 1/4" jack as outputs, when new. I didn't get the preamp and wire harness when I bought it. Can't find anyone selling it that stuff used either. Maybe they were thinking along those lines...or not. I know another Ovation model had stereo outs. Them New Hartford guys certainly tried stuff.
 

JohnW63

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Newer meter check

Red lines from power transformer : 290vac
Green lines 6.13vac

At R36 = 399 vdc
At R35 = 355 vdc
At R34 = 320 vdc
D4/D5 to D6/D7 = cold 270vac, warm = 260vac

V5
( volts to chassis ground )
Pin 1 = 0vdc
Pin 2 = 0.004vdc
Pin 3 = 0vdc
Pin 4 = 2.6vac
Pin 5 = 2.58vac
Pin 6 = 0vdc
Pin 7 = 0vdc
Pin 8 = 0vdc
Pin 9 = 2.8vac
V4
( Volts to chassis ground )
Pin 1 = 0vdc
Pin 2 = 0.94vdc
Pin 3 = 0vdc
Pin 4 = 2.56vac
Pin 5 = 2.56vac
Pin 6 = 0vdc
Pin 7 = 0vdc
Pin 8 = 0vdc
Pin 9 = 0.12vac
 
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Default

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Only the heaters should be ac. All others are dc. You'll get false readings with the meter set to ac. All amplification (plates and screens)use direct current.
 

JohnW63

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I want to verify something.

The preamp tubes are 3 , 12AX7 tubes, V1-V3 . The power tubes are a pair of EL84 tubes. So, we're working backwards through the power section to the pre-amp section.
 

Nuuska

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With these new measurements I can say that mains trafo is OK - and the heater filament circuits are ok.

BUT - there is serious problem in V4 & V5 - first - there is no anode voltage - should be about 370-380V plus pin 9 should be 399V / 370-380V depending on mode switch - this leads me suspecting either the output x-former or the wiring of it. Because even if there were no output tubes at all, voltages at pin 7 & 9 should be near 400V
 

DThomasC

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Come to think of it, I already explained how to troubleshoot a problem like this: start where you have good power and work your way along towards the part of the circuit where you don't have power until you see something interesting. Once you've found the location of the problem it's just a matter of figuring out the specifics of the problem.

Don't make me tell you where to put the red probe. :p
 
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