JF30-12 - thoughts

Zelja

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atmarama said:
The bad news is, after doing conversions between mm and inches, the action at the 12th fret is pretty much 1/5"... While it does look like there is "meat" on the bridge, I am loathe to do that... I tuned her down to Eb but didn't make much difference... The sound of course is as expected, big and beautiful - just what to do about the action?

Get it to a luthier you trust & see if he feels it needs a neck reset. I think my JF30-12 had a lower action than that (not sure how you are measuring though) & the luthier thought it needed a neck reset & that's where it is now - I didn't have too much left on the saddle though. How's your saddle height?
 

atmarama

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Zelja said:
atmarama said:
The bad news is, after doing conversions between mm and inches, the action at the 12th fret is pretty much 1/5"... While it does look like there is "meat" on the bridge, I am loathe to do that... I tuned her down to Eb but didn't make much difference... The sound of course is as expected, big and beautiful - just what to do about the action?

Get it to a luthier you trust & see if he feels it needs a neck reset. I think my JF30-12 had a lower action than that (not sure how you are measuring though) & the luthier thought it needed a neck reset & that's where it is now - I didn't have too much left on the saddle though. How's your saddle height?

My regular guitar tech I have begun to think is a bit too brash, he practically always suggests shaving the bridge down, and has done some pretty dodgy work on other guitars of mine like bolting down a lifting bridge... His "factory spec" action setting is fret buzz low - So I believe I need to find someone new...

I measured from the actual fretboard to the base of the string. There isn't very much left on the saddle, but the strings aren't touching the bridge at least...

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is this???
IMG00076-20110825-0740.jpg
 

Zelja

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^^^^^
Hmmm, could be some kind of "bridge doctor" device which is supposed to stop/remedy bellying:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... ns#details

Have you got any screws going into the top of the bridge which normally wouldn't be there?

AFAIK, the most common way action is measured is from the top of the fret to the botton of the string. 1/5th of an inch seems pretty high. I don't want to scare you & say that you need a neck reset but as others have said here, sometimes it's the only solution - shaving the bridge or the saddle is often delaying the inevitable & a compromise as it often causes the guitar to perform at less than optimum anyway.

Maybe check the neck angle as per the link below to give you more of an idea if a neck reset is needed:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musicia ... angle.html

Neck resets are expensive - mine is costing me $600 plus tax. You might want to sort this out quickly & if a reset is needed could you return the guitar for a refund (if you didn't want the extra expense)? Once again, I'm no expert & I'm not meaning to panic you but she seems to have some issues. It's sounds like you need a good tech to look at it. Good luck
 

atmarama

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Zelja said:
^^^^^
Hmmm, could be some kind of "bridge doctor" device which is supposed to stop/remedy bellying:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... ns#details

Have you got any screws going into the top of the bridge which normally wouldn't be there?

AFAIK, the most common way action is measured is from the top of the fret to the botton of the string. 1/5th of an inch seems pretty high. I don't want to scare you & say that you need a neck reset but as others have said here, sometimes it's the only solution - shaving the bridge or the saddle is often delaying the inevitable & a compromise as it often causes the guitar to perform at less than optimum anyway.

Maybe check the neck angle as per the link below to give you more of an idea if a neck reset is needed:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musicia ... angle.html

Neck resets are expensive - mine is costing me $600 plus tax. You might want to sort this out quickly & if a reset is needed could you return the guitar for a refund (if you didn't want the extra expense)? Once again, I'm no expert & I'm not meaning to panic you but she seems to have some issues. It's sounds like you need a good tech to look at it. Good luck

Aish! I think you're right about the bridge doctor story - how do I tell how bellied the top is? There is a bolt/screw of sorts in the back centre of the bridge... How long does the "bridge doctor" stay inside?

I'm not sure about the neck angle, but I don't have a great feeling about it, the action is high.

What to do?
 

capnjuan

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atmarama said:
... I think you're right about the bridge doctor story - how do I tell how bellied the top is Hi atmarama: the top is supposed to have a slight crown to it. You can put a straightedge on it and see; a ruler say at 90 degs to the strings between the bridge and heel ought to rock just a little. Definition of little? ... not very much.

There is a bolt/screw of sorts in the back centre of the bridge... How long does the "bridge doctor" stay inside? You can take it out to see if the belly returns but I think they're meant to stay; they also improve clarity and sustain.
Belly can be caused by lots of things; failed brace-to-top glue joints, lifting bridge, or a cracked bridge plate. If the problem is a lifting bridge/cracked plate, re-fitting the bridge and plate can usually fix the problem as it did on a '66 F212. But as I suggested, Bridge doctors have other virtues besides just tummy-tucking. Good luck with your guitar.
 

hojo199

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I'm telling ya, sanding the bridge on mine did not compromise the tone at all. Of course, Mr. Neri (the best luthier in this area) blessed it -- otherwise it was gonna be a neck reset for sure....
 

atmarama

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capnjuan said:
atmarama said:
... I think you're right about the bridge doctor story - how do I tell how bellied the top is Hi atmarama: the top is supposed to have a slight crown to it. You can put a straightedge on it and see; a ruler say at 90 degs to the strings between the bridge and heel ought to rock just a little. Definition of little? ... not very much.

There is a bolt/screw of sorts in the back centre of the bridge... How long does the "bridge doctor" stay inside? You can take it out to see if the belly returns but I think they're meant to stay; they also improve clarity and sustain.
Belly can be caused by lots of things; failed brace-to-top glue joints, lifting bridge, or a cracked bridge plate. If the problem is a lifting bridge/cracked plate, re-fitting the bridge and plate can usually fix the problem as it did on a '66 F212. But as I suggested, Bridge doctors have other virtues besides just tummy-tucking. Good luck with your guitar.

Thanks for this :) A 30 cm ruler between bridge & heel rocks a little, maybe a little too much - but the previous owner says the Bridge Doctor was installed as a precautionary measure - is it definitely true that the Bridge Doctor doesn't detract from sound at all, in fact improves tone??? I would have though you would want the bridge to vibrate directly onto the top as opposed to much of the energy going into the wood that is the Bridge Doctor... Learning much - but I suppose I can live with the Bridge Doctor if it's only doing good work...
 

atmarama

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hojo199 said:
I'm telling ya, sanding the bridge on mine did not compromise the tone at all. Of course, Mr. Neri (the best luthier in this area) blessed it -- otherwise it was gonna be a neck reset for sure....

So it seems she does need what my usual guitar tech calls "open heart surgery" (neck reset) - one of the first things he usually suggests is to shave the bridge down, he didn't even mention it :p what is the typical price for a neck reset in the US? I'm sure it's gonna be worth it! Just would like to find the best luthier/tech in town...
 

adorshki

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atmarama said:
Thanks for this :) A 30 cm ruler between bridge & heel rocks a little, maybe a little too much - but the previous owner says the Bridge Doctor was installed as a precautionary measure - is it definitely true that the Bridge Doctor doesn't detract from sound at all, in fact improves tone??? I would have though you would want the bridge to vibrate directly onto the top as opposed to much of the energy going into the wood that is the Bridge Doctor... Learning much - but I suppose I can live with the Bridge Doctor if it's only doing good work...
Like most things, Bridge Doctors aren't guaranteed to improve tone/sustain, it'll depend upon the specific application, but I think opinion's about 5-1 around here in favor of 'em. They certainly don't appear to do any harm. I'm getting a slight bellying in my F65ce, and I asked a tech who did a great refret job on my D25 what he thought about 'em. He was quick to say he thinks they're tone-killers, but I suspect his opinion may be a bit colored by his vested interest in doing better-paying repair work, like re-setting a bridge.
A neck reset may be the most expensive thing you can do in a guitar repair, it could run upwards of $1200.00 at Gryphon Instruments in Palo Alto CA, if you can even get 'em to undertake the job. That's Frank Ford's place, somewhat of a legend in the business. For one thing Guilds have reputation for being harder to reset than your everday Gibson or Martin. Also, his reset's going to include EVERYTHING including a re-fret, which should be included because the neck's gonna have undergone some flexing and torquing during the process. It's gonna need the refret as a final detail in restoring it to ideal playability.
 

hojo199

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atmarama said:
hojo199 said:
I'm telling ya, sanding the bridge on mine did not compromise the tone at all. Of course, Mr. Neri (the best luthier in this area) blessed it -- otherwise it was gonna be a neck reset for sure....

So it seems she does need what my usual guitar tech calls "open heart surgery" (neck reset) - one of the first things he usually suggests is to shave the bridge down, he didn't even mention it :p what is the typical price for a neck reset in the US? I'm sure it's gonna be worth it! Just would like to find the best luthier/tech in town...

I had the neck reset on my Martin -- as well as a new bridge and new frets. All of that was 700-ish. Guilds, however, are more expensive because they need to be spot finished or something -- I am not sure what, only know that it is a bit more difficult than other guitar makes.... Yes, it will be worth it. You will love that guitar.
 

adorshki

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hojo199 said:
Guilds, however, are more expensive because they need to be spot finished or something -- I am not sure what, only know that it is a bit more difficult than other guitar makes.... Yes, it will be worth it. You will love that guitar.
THEre was a thread on it recently. IIRC the bigggest issue was something about that broad heel being more difficult to loosen up. WE've also heard reports about the amount and strength of hideglue in the joint.
 

atmarama

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adorshki said:
hojo199 said:
Guilds, however, are more expensive because they need to be spot finished or something -- I am not sure what, only know that it is a bit more difficult than other guitar makes.... Yes, it will be worth it. You will love that guitar.
THEre was a thread on it recently. IIRC the bigggest issue was something about that broad heel being more difficult to loosen up. WE've also heard reports about the amount and strength of hideglue in the joint.

Please could you folks enlighten me a little more about neck resets - is hide glue is used to "set" the neck to the body? I take it this should be the ONLY substance used for this right? Does a neck reset involve cutting the neck out at all? Just want to have all my facts straight - my usual guitar tech I use, as already mentioned, is what I call "rough and ready". He quoted me a ridiculously low price for the reset, compared to prices you folks have mentioned!
 

adorshki

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atmarama said:
Please could you folks enlighten me a little more about neck resets - is hide glue is used to "set" the neck to the body? I take it this should be the ONLY substance used for this right? Does a neck reset involve cutting the neck out at all? Just want to have all my facts straight - my usual guitar tech I use, as already mentioned, is what I call "rough and ready". He quoted me a ridiculously low price for the reset, compared to prices you folks have mentioned!
The "set" of the neck refers to the angle of the neck/fretboard in relation to the body of the guitar. String tension tends to pull the neck forward towrds the bridge over the life of the guitar, which results in that unacceptably high action you see. The purpose of a reset is to bring it back to the ideal angle. When the neck's off the guitar the luthier can work on shaving and shimming ts correct the angle before regluing.
The reset is BEST way to restore playabillity to an instrument, because it preserves the integrity of the bridge and saddle which need to retain enough "meat" to do their job correctly, that is, transfer energy to the top without cracking themselves.
Hideglue's the traditional glue used to make guitars, including gluing the backs/tops/sides/joints. It's literally derived from animal proteins: hides and hooves.
Some makers now use modern woodworking glues, "aliphatic resins", the yellow stuff you can buy in hardware stores ready to apply.
IIRC, in a thread about glues, someone pointed out that the modern glues are more prone to "stretch" as they age, and hideglue has the best stability, so yes, it SHOULD be used for that task where there's LOTS of stress.
It requires a lot of slow heat to loosen up for disassembly of any joint in the instrument.
Guild's trademark wide shallow heel creates more surface area for glue than the more common narrow sharp-edged heel. The reset involves only the loosening of the glue until the neck can literally be pulled off the guitar. There's no cutting of the neck per se. Remember that the fretboard has to be separated from the top of the guitar too, so you want someone who's going to take care not to really screw up the finish in that area.
Here, in this thread, is a pic of a freshly separated neck:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=27306&p=295193#p295193
You should be aware that that's one of the CLEANEST separations I've seen on this board, that guy obviously knows how to work it. Do you trust your guy to do it that well? Did he include the refret in his quote? And NOT just a "fret dressing"?.
I'm guessing that anybody who WANTS to do a neck reset on a Guild probably isn't the best guy for the job. The guys who know how tough it is tend to only take on the headaches for good customers and worthy instruments.
 

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adorshki said:
IIRC, in a thread about glues, someone pointed out that the modern glues are more prone to "stretch" as they age, and hideglue has the best stability, so yes, it SHOULD be used for that task where there's LOTS of stress.
It requires a lot of slow heat to loosen up for disassembly of any joint in the instrument. Guild's trademark wide shallow heel creates more surface area for glue than the more common narrow sharp-edged heel. The reset involves only the loosening of the glue until the neck can literally be pulled off the guitar. There's no cutting of the neck per se. Remember that the fretboard has to be separated from the top of the guitar too, so you want someone who's going to take care not to really screw up the finish in that area.

Mmmmm... lots of good knowledge here thanks... Makes me rather weary to take it in to this fellow - he mentioned cutting at either side of the neck join, and "open heart surgery" etc

adorshki said:
Do you trust your guy to do it that well? Did he include the refret in his quote? And NOT just a "fret dressing"? I'm guessing that anybody who WANTS to do a neck reset on a Guild probably isn't the best guy for the job. The guys who know how tough it is tend to only take on the headaches for good customers and worthy instruments.

In one sense he is the most talked about, and reasonably priced guitar tech here in Durban. He has been fixing guitars for years and has had tons of experience with a whole host of different problems - his speciallity is building up/fixing instruments that have been in major accidents. In another way I almost feel he does things his own way, and maybe with something this intensive, it may be better to get someone a little more careful. Another musician friend has suggested another luthier, who works more on a part time basis, but who he says is more careful than the aforementioned fellow...

Tricky situation... Thanks for the help, you guys here at LTG rock!
 

atmarama

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So, some good news and some bad news -

Bad news is what we suspected, neck reset is required... :|

Good news is that I've found a luthier in my home town whom I trust, he's got it now :) Thanks for the help and knowledge guys, you helped a whole lot! :wink: The other cool thing is the guy who traded me the Guild said he would help to finance the fix :D

Atmarama
 

Zelja

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Good that you're getting some financial help with the repair. It sucks that you have to get it fixed & be without it for a while but you should enjoy it so much more when it comes back - at least I hope so as I'm in the same boat with mine.
 

atmarama

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Zelja said:
Good that you're getting some financial help with the repair. It sucks that you have to get it fixed & be without it for a while but you should enjoy it so much more when it comes back - at least I hope so as I'm in the same boat with mine.

Thanks man! Ye lets hope all goes well for both of us :wink:
 

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adorshki said:
something about that broad heel being more difficult to loosen up
And that broad heel is one of my favorite Guild feature. So much more comfortable than say the Martin type heel when playing up the neck. :wink:
 

adorshki

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bluesypicky said:
adorshki said:
something about that broad heel being more difficult to loosen up
And that broad heel is one of my favorite Guild feature. So much more comfortable than say the Martin type heel when playing up the neck. :wink:
Me too, absotively posilutely! :D
 
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